Was there a Monastery Where the Grimsby Golf Course is ? Archaeology
Me: I think there was
Imaginary Sceptic: What proof do you have ?
Me: Dude ! I’ve actually got part of it !
Yes folks we’re really cooking with gas now. Today I managed to acquire two pieces of stonework that were uncovered when the Water Board dug up the land through the Grimsby Golf Course area to put in a water culvert. I have verbal testimony to the huge amount of stonework there and foundations - so not just stray bits of stone it seems.
What a Result - Awesome !
[later important edit]
As well as comments below etc there has been much more on this in later articles Little Coates and Wybers Wood.
Below was my first history based article . . . and it shows - sorry !
Looking at the condition I suspect this carved stone is probably from the interior
This piece possibly from a gable end or such like
This piece is hollowed out like a water trough or such like - not in my possession though
How good as that !
I’ll bet you all scoffed at the notion of Goldeneye Historical Investigator as well 
What I need now is more info and an expert to date to stonework. The first part looks newer to me, hence my suggestion of interior - we shall see. Please let me know if you know anything.
Well, that sees your host hugely satisfied today, well fed, been taking in the sun, fantastic result with the above - I may well take a drop of wine tonight and celebrate in the fashion of the monks that once lived in this area.
What a cracking day
Regards
Rod - Lincolnshire Archaeologist
Scroll down for lots more research and some more pictures of newly emerged stone
the dinosaur said,
February 10, 2008 @ 9:46 pm
Rod, Well done, such success hints at fate! I can’t help but wonder where this is leading you?
Rod said,
February 11, 2008 @ 8:23 am
Dino
it could turn into something. I still cannot find details of anything on that site - which seems peculiar.
One thing I am noticing in internet searches now though is I’m turning up in most of them - very helpful
Regards
Rod
Annie Flinn said,
February 11, 2008 @ 10:13 pm
Sorry, my dear Monk, this all gives new meaning to being stoned. Well done, mate.
Rod said,
February 12, 2008 @ 9:32 am
Annie,
why thank you maaam !
Jordan said,
February 12, 2008 @ 10:28 am
Call in Time Team
Rod said,
February 12, 2008 @ 11:00 am
Jordan,
that actually is a point worth making. The club has plenty of info about it’s history on their website but no mention of this.
Was it checked out by experts at the time of the water works digging ?
If I ran a golf course I’d not make a lot of noise about it, I’d really rather not have people coming and digging it up …
Regards
Rod
Jordan said,
February 12, 2008 @ 11:15 am
RC
Go for it! Stop the council work! Scupper them in their tracks!
Any work can be stopped at any time if it is of historic or archaeological means.
Wouldn’t mention that you have some artefacts though
Jordan
Rod said,
February 12, 2008 @ 12:24 pm
Jordan
too late to stop them as it was done many years ago.
I’ve just met a member of the club who is going to make some enquiries at the club so the quest continues.
I’ll be hanging on to my artefacts - as all good bachelors do
Best
RC
Keith said,
February 29, 2008 @ 3:45 pm
Definately an old monastery site, consider the names on Wybers Estate next to the golf course, Priory Close - Sanctuary Way etc
Rod said,
February 29, 2008 @ 4:20 pm
Hi Keith
thanks for the comment and welcome to the site.
I keep hearing the same anecdotally but I have yet to uncover docuentary evidence.
That is my main quest at the moment.
If anybody has any information at all please do leave a comment.
Thanks again Keith
Regards
Rod
Rod said,
September 11, 2008 @ 8:30 am
Archaeology - ancient sites - historical information
Little Coates - Great Coates - Wybers Wood - Willows - Toothill - Healing
Hugh said,
June 18, 2009 @ 4:46 pm
The top stone seems to be a peice of Gothic arch (c.1200-1500), the middle peice I’m not sure of but looks like a broken tombstone from c.1700-1900, the bottom peice could be a basin for washing hands before communion (can’t remember the technical term) or just a farm/household basin. They most likely come from St Michael’s church, removed during one of its rebuilds, either being used for foundations or to level ground in the old village which occupies part of the golf course.
Rod said,
June 18, 2009 @ 7:57 pm
Hi Hugh,
thanks for the interesting comment, much appreciated.
I had considered the idea of ’spoil’ from St Michael’s Hugh but I was told they dug through foundations and and there was masses of stone.
We are always keen to learn more or hear any other opinions
All the best
Rod
Steve... said,
August 17, 2009 @ 3:03 pm
Hi Rod,
I have taken a keen interest in the places you have been investigating over the last 6 months, especially Knights Templar. I also enjoy visiting ancient sites locally, archaeology and ancient history. I believe I may be able to help you in some way in order to further your quest and insight.
Kind regards…
Steve…
P.S. I do not like to disclose too much on the net but I feel impressed to contact you.
Rod said,
August 17, 2009 @ 7:51 pm
Chris
no there was a church
whoa there ! That’s a statement Chris - I can find no record of a church there at all, a few people have told me there was but I can find nothing - is there anything concrete (or should I say dressed stone) information ?
Best
Rod
chris keyworth said,
August 17, 2009 @ 8:47 pm
i have a lsting for a church and a DMV centred on this grid ref TA 246 086 the site of Little Coates Medieval Village. if your finds are closer to the fresney they could be the site of a Mill as ive read somwhere there was two mills at little coates i will keep digging for you this is the sort of mystery i like…..
Regards
Chris
Ive also got a roman listing for here to TA 250 085
Rod said,
August 18, 2009 @ 8:22 am
Chris,
this is really exciting, when I read your comment I wondered whether your listing could be the current site St Michael’s but looking at the map those coordinates are the other side of the road - this could be it Chris !!!!!! (I’m grinning like an idiot as I type)
I’m also more than a little interested in the Roman listing at TA 250 085 - I have to get on with that !
Bloody Marvellous Chris
All the best
Rod
chris keyworth said,
August 18, 2009 @ 11:11 am
btw… both peices of stone work in the picture above are internals as you put it, the top one being a secton a section of vaulting the one below is a section of pier arch they look like they are C1200 the picture below that i am unsure on but loks modern to me, i have a C1300 stone manhole cdover in my garden i use it as a bird table
regards
chris
chris keyworth said,
August 18, 2009 @ 5:37 pm
Hi Rod
is there any location marks on the stone they look like a cross + also any masons mark? these could be any symbol used to identify the mason these can be tracked back if there is you may be able to link the stones to other buildings of a similar age, masons traveled well and there individual work will crop up in churches around the area i guarentee it……
regards
chris
Rod said,
August 18, 2009 @ 6:57 pm
Hi Chris,
none that I’ve seen I’m afraid.
Do you have anything for me to go on re the church and DMV at TA 246 086 - I can still find nothing
Best
Rod
chris keyworth said,
August 18, 2009 @ 8:39 pm
best ive got so far is just what it says in a book, A Survey of Archaeological Sites in Humberside, By Loughlin and Miller… ISBN 0 904451 08 9, I have a copy but there is one at grimsby library it covers most sites in our area but non in lincolnshire.
regards
chris
Rod said,
August 19, 2009 @ 7:55 am
Hi Chris,
many thanks - it as actually listed as existing - that is the main thing - hopefully not a wild goose chase then
Thanks again for all the info
Best
Rod
Hugh said,
September 6, 2009 @ 1:17 pm
The grid reference will just be a general one for Little Coates, hence it’s location in the middle of the golf course.
However up until a certain point in the medieval period (not sure when, my books are in work) it wasn’t too unusual for parishes to have two churches, one being under control of the central church and the other being of private ownership - I’m not sure if this happened late enough to explain a fragment of gothic arch though. Churches are much more likely to have not been recorded than monastaries or priories.
It is also common for high status houses to use stonework from churches; the rich landowner would pay for the remodelling of the church in the modern style of the time, and use any stone either removed or left over from the remodelling to build his house. Therefore there are lots of interesting possibilities for the origin of this stone-work.
Rod said,
September 6, 2009 @ 5:02 pm
Hi Hugh,
the coordinates from Chris place the building in the exact same place as the clubhouse is today !
Cheers
Rod
Rod said,
January 3, 2010 @ 3:46 pm
Update.
Anecdotal information received today. The largest house at Toothill, on the corner of the roundabout opposite the site once occupied ny the petrol station, was having the garden landscaped many years ago and tons of carved stone was dug up.
It was from and I quote “the old monastery”
It’s all anecdotal but none the less more stone.
Interestingly the house and land it sits on is know as Chapel Field !!!
Amiguru said,
January 9, 2010 @ 9:02 pm
Rod,
Just a series of random thoughts/observations.
The ‘basin’ Hugh referes to was known as a piscina and no it was not for that!though i suspect that in times of dire need…… I’m pretty convinced that is an old farmhouse ‘kitchen;sink’.
It was from and I quote “the old monastery” This could, if it were a fact, mean Wellow.
Another thought about all this stone; could it be from St. Mary’s?
Yes, I know that some was used to repair St. James’ but if this land at Little Coates was owned by someone of wealth/influence/authority they may have bought/commandeered it to build either a house or barn for instance.
Sorry that these thoughts are, in the main, seemingly negative but ‘checks and balances’. We have to be realistic and objective. It is after all called Cotes Parva or Little Coates and there are no records which have come to light so far of anything of the mediaeval/post mediaeval period other than St. Michaels. I have spent most of yet another day downloading documents of reliable information on ecclesiastical buildings in Lincs. and there is absolutely no mention of anything in the area other than St. Michaels.
The hills issue though is another thing.
I’ll probably get fired now!
Regards,
le
N
chris keyworth said,
January 9, 2010 @ 9:20 pm
Artistic diference kicking in here, but i am with rod on this one there could be grounds for another church here, being local nev there are plenty of buried churches long forgotton about, for example there is one at little limber which is now in the grounds of a farm all that now remains of it is the stump of a cross…
regards
chris
Rod said,
January 10, 2010 @ 9:01 am
Neville,
please do be negative - I’m not looking to prove the theory with positive approval.
I myself have been saying for a long time I find it hard to believe there was a church there simply because I’ve seen so many really detailed records it’s hard to imagine that a whole church could go unmentioned.
I’m also wary of anecdotal evidence which does annoy some people who tell me it.
It’s far back in time to be anecdotal about - I get a lot of ‘well everybody knows about the church that was on Wybers Wood’ and the like - but everybody is just repeating what soembody else has said.
The only thing I’ve got against it being spoil from another known building is the supposed amount there was/is and the work involved in transporting it there - at the time it was the middle of nowhere in town terms.
I hope we’ll crack it one day - whatever the answer
Best
Rod
Rod said,
January 10, 2010 @ 9:04 am
Chris,
as a matter of interest, do you know of any churches that don’t exist in let’s say
easy to find records on the internet, in books and the like ?
Best
Rod
Amiguru said,
January 10, 2010 @ 10:13 am
Rod,
Thanks for appreciating that I wasn’t actually being negative in order to knock any theories, it is just that someone has to be brave enough to say ‘hang on a minute, are we barking up the wrong tree’. It is an essential aspect of all investigations and particularly true of archaeology. If it makes us stop and think about alternatives, then it is in fact positive.
I know that you realised all that, in light of previous conversations. I shall continue to search for any scraps of information which might support the idea of a building of some sort in the area. Here is just a little taster of what I’m investigating at the mo:
” Johanne de Cotes tenente x. partem un. f. in Parva Cotes, quod Willelmus Eussel quondam tenuit.”
Essentially, this gives us a couple of names of characters with tax liabilities in the 14th C. and living in Little Coates.
While I’m at it here’s another snippet to keep Chris going: Neusom
Vale,
le
N
Rod said,
January 10, 2010 @ 10:41 am
Neville,
I’d encourage everybody who visits the site to say whatever they want or offer any opinion, personally I tend to prefer opinions and ideas that differ from what I’ve written - widens the debate and brings up a ton of useful information in subsequent exchanges.
I’m liking Johanne !
There must have be things going on in and around here as Little Coates and Great Coates predate Grimsby I think
Best
Rod
Rod said,
April 27, 2010 @ 7:02 pm
Major Update:
Today has been rather special. I’ve obtained more stone from my ‘missing church’
To go with the stone originally pictured today I did incredibly well - as you’ll see
4 more pieces of stone and some important ones at that
Very large piece
Above you’ll see a large piece of worked stone with a wine bottle to give you scale - it’s a serious lump.
It weighs just under 6 stone (84lb) and felt like it carrying the thing as well
Part of a Column !! !!!
Now, this is unbelievable - part of a column and approximately 14 inches in diameter fluted to edges, some wear but very impressive. About 43 inches circumference and weighs in at 10.5 stone (147 pounds) - try getting that out of the boot of your car on your own and carrying it to your patio !
Carved head
The above is a carved head !!!!!!!
Not a gargoyle or grotesque but one of the smaller ones which often line the outside of churches. The picture doesn’t show it clearly but I nearly fainted when I saw it.
It’s resting on another small worked piece of stone.
As you can see this is serious stuff and I can now say, what with the rest of my days experience, that these are not isolated pieces of stone.
There was a religious building here or one was demolished elsewhere and dumped here.
I could have paved both my gardens with medieval church flagstones today !!!
I cannot even begin to thank all those involved . . .
Just tell me . . . how good is that . . . I’m over the moon
Stunned Rod
Peter Mullins said,
April 27, 2010 @ 9:30 pm
Stunning. For interpretation, as you know, context is all - your loyal readers need and demand to know as much context as possible.
Amiguru said,
April 27, 2010 @ 9:30 pm
Rod,
“Above you’ll see a large piece of worked stone with a wine bottle to give you scale - it’s a serious lump.
It weighs just under 6 stone……” That’s a seriously full-bodied claret then, but what did the stone weigh?
I’m delighted for you! It’s very likely that all of this stone, (today’s and the earlier stone), is from the same original source.
I’m still going to insist on being the wet blanket as far as a religious building of that calibre having stood on the site of the golf course. I may be proven wrong in time, however, if it was from Wellow Abbey or St. Mary’s its still a cause to crack open the claret as, if either be the case, this is the only stone currently potentially identifyable as being from one or the other or possibly, both. I say this as the stone from St. Mary’s which was incorporated may well be indistinguishable from the rest now.
Regards,
Neville
History Hunter said,
April 28, 2010 @ 12:16 am
Having had a good read of this thread…..i GE’d the co-ordinates, messed around with the settings and came up with this image (minus all the text - my addition). There are definately some building-esque shapes in there.
What say you?
Image sent by email
chris keyworth said,
April 28, 2010 @ 7:45 am
Rod
any masons marks or locating marks on the blocks…
regards
chris
Rod said,
April 28, 2010 @ 8:20 am
Peter,
it’s all from the same area so there’s no question of provenance - it’s very exciting stuff
Best
Rod
PS: I’ll try and email you
Rod said,
April 28, 2010 @ 8:23 am
Neville,
on balance I agree with you - it’s hard to imagine a building with colums such as above existing without being known. I was happy with that theory quite some time ago - then a professional archaeologist told me he’d found two churches that weren’t recorded anywhere
Personally speaking, if I had to bet the farm on it I’d say it was St Mary’s but it still begs the question why move it all the way to Toote Hill ?
The logistics of the job are beyond belief - I know I’ve moved a couple of bits
Best
Rod
Rod said,
April 28, 2010 @ 8:30 am
HH
can’t get connected to my server at the moment so will add asap.
It looks interesting but when I looked over the area via the sat maps there were so many likely looking things on the golf course. Much I guessed was landscaping and creation of features etc.
I’m no expert though so a studied eye would be useful
Best
Rod
Rod said,
April 28, 2010 @ 8:31 am
Chris,
I’m going to have a careful look after a gentle clean but nothing appeared on first sight
Cheers
Rod
Amiguru said,
April 28, 2010 @ 12:56 pm
Rod,
I’ve digitally measured the distance that the stone would have had to travel, (on the assumption that it was St. Mary’s; Wellow would, of course, have been nearer), following the only route option between say 16th. and 20th. centuries, via Bargate, Laceby Road and Little Coates and give or take a few yards it comes out at 3.46 miles.
Considering the logistics, if someone of means had a need or desire to have a supply of stone then the distance in a dry season would not have been such a difficulty, loading and unloading on the other hand, would have been the bulk of the work. Of course we still don’t know when the stone arrived at your area and therefore what the local economic climate was.
If work was hard to come by then labourers may well have been cheap to hire. If the need for stone was imperative then the alternative of new stone would have been much more expensive having to be quarried cut and transported, either overland or via Grimsby Docks.
I have three more questions to beg:
1. Could you do some macros of the raw, less weathered surfaces and either/and/or e-mail/post them so that the texture can be studied please? As far as I can make out the stone is sedimentary and probably sandstone, (I think I can detect an inverted bivalve shell in the top surface of the fluted column). Details like, whether it is oolitic could well determine its origins.This might also be useful for checking point 2.
2. Looking at the available images, is there a possibilty that the stone was used for the 19th. C additions to St. Michael’s? The colour at this range looks similar, i.e. pinkish grey. In the above pictures, (except the head), all ‘raw’ surfaces seem to be of that colour. The pieces you have may have been surplus to requirements or have not fitted in stylistically. Perhaps Peter could help enlighten us in respect of some of these questions.
3. There is another possible source of the second hand stone. What about The Nuns!? Transport wise this would, of course, have been even nearer.
I think that will do for now.
Regards,
Neville
Peter Mullins said,
April 28, 2010 @ 3:33 pm
I had thought of St Michael’s too. The work in 1913 would have included the removal of the whole north wall but examination of ground plans of the church as it was before this makes me doubt it would have included things like a column. But it might be worth a quick compare to see if there is any match. The 1913-15 church does have a green man which cleary comes from a different earlier building, so there is this single feature which might indicate a more complicated feature.
I had thought of St Leonard’s Nunnery too and think I posted the idea somewhere (but not for some reason on this thread) - all that stone disappeared to somewhere and, as you say, a shorter distance away by bullock cart than St Mary’s Church or Wellow Abbey.
Amiguru said,
April 28, 2010 @ 4:59 pm
Peter,
I agree on that specific but I was really meaning in the sense that the stone may have been obtained as a ‘job lot’ and carted wholesale, the stone being then sorted onsite at St. Michael’s into useable and non-usable stone.; i.e. the fluted column would have had a use/purpose in the building of origin but rejected at St. M’s. The rejects may then, if considerable, sold on to a third party, or if a lesser quantity, simply discarded.
Another scenario I can envisage is ‘Bob-the-builder’s’ labourer of the time at the source site may have just loaded anything and everything onto carts in ignorance of the appropriateness of some of the pieces???
There are so many possible permutations but between us all, I’m sure that our collective ideas are indeed getting somewhere. The more thoughts aired the better, and I for one am prepared to think aloud publicly, even if my ideas seem ridiculous with hindsight.
Kind regards,
Neville
Rod said,
April 28, 2010 @ 6:14 pm
A general point as to dating re St Michael’s etc. The first stone I got was, I’m told, unearthed when the culvert went through where the golf course is. The course opend in 1923 and I understand this was carried out after the first world war so I’m guesssing the stone was already in the ground pre 1913 - that’s anecdoatl though.
Rod said,
April 28, 2010 @ 6:21 pm
Neville,
that’s very interesting - many thanks. My feeling about the mvoing of the stone is not so much it wasn’t or couldn’t be done just why would you. There must/may have been easier ways to deal it all.
We already know that lots of stone taken from St Mary’s was used in town for building, even Holles himself bought some.
The column is a sandstone type stone Neville certainly fairly ’soft’ I’ll take some macros and email you them as I know you like your pictures big - if they go on here they’ll be small
As to ideas being aired that’s the best thing for me - toss them out in the open and let’s all have a think about them - who knows where they lead and indeed have done on various threads here in the past.
I’ll take some pics now Neville
Regards
Rod
Rod said,
April 28, 2010 @ 7:02 pm
Scroll up for HH’s aerial shot of the golf course - pic now added
Many thanks HH
Best
Rod
Amiguru said,
April 28, 2010 @ 10:10 pm
Rod,
Many thanks for the images. Verdict in reply.
Regards,
Neville
Amiguru said,
April 29, 2010 @ 6:47 pm
Rod,
Thanks for the macros which confirm my suspicion that all of these stones, including those in the original posts, but excepting the water trough and possibly the carved head, were almost certainly quarried at Ancaster, west of Sleaford.
There are two indicators, one being the colour, (just enter ‘Ancaster quarry’ in Google images and you’ll see what I mean!), or look at St. Martin’s Church, Ancaster. The second indication is by examining the stone in close-up and noticing that it is full of tiny stone ‘eggs’ this is known in geological terms as ‘oolitic’. Ancaster stone is pinkish grey oolitic limestone.
Of course, this doesn’t identify which ecclesiastical building it came from but it is another piece fitted into the puzzle.
In case anyone wonders how hundreds of tons of stone was moved from Ancaster to Grimsby, I would suggest that it was carted the five miles or so to the River Slea at Sleaford which then joins the River Witham en route to Boston where it could be shipped to Grimsby Haven.
Regards,
Neville
Rod said,
April 29, 2010 @ 7:17 pm
Neville,
that’s amazing - more fabulous information.
The stuff coming out here is breathtaking to me, as I know it is to many others as well.
What’s it going to be like in a few years ?
Can’t thank you enough Neville
Regards
Rod
Karen said,
June 8, 2010 @ 1:06 am
What an intersting page yu have here! There is a local - I use the word very reservedly - templar expert at Newark. Dr David Marcombe. He restored the old church at spital in the street - a tempar pilgrim site- and is an archeologist/church historian. He might know the answer. also another local man - john somebody who lectures for WEA but his speciality is hospitallers.
On a reaalted note Im led to believe there was mediavel military order activity in the Grimsby area. Seemingly the site of the Wheatsheaf pub was a water mill and down near the college there was a leper hospital. Maybe the knights of Lazarus?
At Bottesford , near Scunthorpe there is allegedly an immersion bath in the garden of a house . You can sometimes get in on Heritage Open days. Ive never been able to get to seeit so cant offer any comments on how good it is.
Ive not checked any of your other pages so apologies if Im telling you stuff you already know
Rod said,
June 8, 2010 @ 7:22 am
Hi Karen,
thanks for the comment and welcome to the site. All information greatly appreciated and gratefully received
There’s a bit more on the Knights Templar locally below karen
All the best
Rod
Knights Templar in Grimsby
Grimsby Templar Preceptory
History Hunter said,
June 19, 2010 @ 9:19 pm
On another exciting walk with Stealth Pooch tonight, i noticed whilst walking down Great Coates road that the house at Number 7 is called…..wait for it………Chapel Field House!!!!
Interesting or what? Im wondering if its location is anything to do with St Michaels maybe? Or possibly something to do with the Nunnery or even a Knights Templar building.
At the moment there is nobody living there as its the house that was vacated when it was found that the petrol station had poisoned the ground in the vicinity of Toot Hill. It now houses massive monitoring equipment!
Rod said,
June 20, 2010 @ 8:17 am
HH,
you’re spot on the money about it being of great interest - certainly is to me.
check this comment out and what follows on from there
Thanks and regards
Rod
john ogden said,
December 16, 2011 @ 11:21 pm
Hi Rod,
I’ve been looking over your site with interest after entering the words “the history of Grimsby golf Club” on Google. I am a Directory of the club charged with updating our web site to show more of the history of the club and the course and think your article about a possible monastery is exactly what I’m looking for. I’m also looking for information on what I believe was an old water course crossing the course from the Freshney eastwards towards Toote Hill, passing within 100 yard of the possible Monastery! This water course I believe went right across the town passing the end of Carson Avenue and Corinthian Avenue causing some subsidence.
I also read your article on Toote Hill, I’ve hear it said that the hill where our seventh hole is situated near St Michael’s church is the highest point in Grimsby and this was a possible watch point and being next to a river which if was around in Roman times would have been tidal! Or was the course of the Freshney as I describe passing close to Toote Hill in Roman times!!!!!
Regards
John
Rod said,
December 17, 2011 @ 8:34 am
Hi John,
thanks for the comment and welcome to the site. The area you’re interested in is a fascinating spot and one with a greater history than is realised I believe - a lot more went on there . . . I’m convinced.
As to hills actually on the site of the Golf Course John I personally would look more at Cun Hu Hill which is, for me, possibly more important than Toote Hill.
All the best,
Rod