Toote Hill ~ Toothill ~ Toot Hill Grimsby the History and Story Behind
The Toothill area of Grimsby has quite a surprising past which is more than a little interesting.
Here is a brief initial article and report into the area which will, I hope, expand over time
Toote Hill in Grimsby Lincolnshire ~ History and Further Information
The area in question is in and around the roundabout where Littlecoates and Great Coates roads meets, The Trawl Public House, the former Shell petrol station etc etc and was an area of national importance !
This was one of several huge mounds in Grimsby and made up part of a signalling network. The hills were man-made and in this case of incredible size.
Given the dimensions, historians have, quite logically, concluded that the town was of great national importance at the time.
The size of the mound was an astonishing 2,000 feet in circumference, sloped height 270 feet and summit height 100 feet - covering 6 acres of land !
Remember we’re going back to Roman times, not sure of an exact date presumably before the Romans, so imagine the logistics of building such a thing.
If you wonder why you cannot see it today, though the area is still raised a little, I believe it was gradually removed and used for aggregate and the like in the building of the more modern town and docks.
I believe there is some archaeological information and also record of finds which I’m not 100% sure of - thankfully we have contributors to the site who are very well versed in the subject and hopefully they may be able to shed some light on the subject.
As this was one of seven such hills in the area I’ll look to do separate articles on each one as I think they warrant it and also it will stop any confusion in regards of what exactly happened where etc.
I see mention of Druids at one spot for example !
The area is already of great interest to me and not just because of it’s local nature. I’m looking for a possible Missing Monastery or Religious Building where the golf course now stands. Not to mention a Priory in the fields behind Wybers Wood - all help greatly appreciated !
If you know anything of the area and its history please feel free to leave a comment and share the information - or indeed if you simply have an opinion on what you’ve read.
We are also especially interested in any more historical evidence, not pasted from another website please, and ideally something illustrative showing what the area may once have looked like.
[Later edit] Please do scroll through the comments below as there is an awful lot more information and images - thank you
Image Probably circa 1903
Shows the excavation of the site for sand used in building etc
Taken from Byways in British Archaeology Published 1912
Bones and earthenware were found at, or near, this spot a century ago, and soon after the visit just described skeletons were dug up in the sand pit. The ultimate fate of these skeletons, and their determinations, could not be ascertained.
Very Locally Yours
Rod
[Edit] Map added - kindly sent in by Neville
Frontispiece map from 1825 edition of George Oliver’s ‘The monumental antiquities of Great Grimsby’.
A Plan of the Ancient British Monuments in Grimsby
Drawn By: Rev A . W. Smith - Engraved By: Consitt & Goodwill, Hull
Please see also the related articles on
Toote Hill ~ Holm Hill ~ Abbey Hill ~ Cun Hu ~ Sand Hill ~ Ellyll ~ Spittal ~ Chapel Hill ~ Mill Hill
chris keyworth said,
October 23, 2009 @ 10:54 am
verrrrrry interesting map……
seems to be a lack of peaks lane area, remember years ago there was a big dig down there done by john sills they found an iron age settlement……
Amiguru said,
December 14, 2009 @ 5:32 pm
Rod,
As a ‘wild cat among the pigeons’ how about the Knights Templar’s Hospital of St John of Jerusalem being under Milton Road just before it joins Second Avenue? Just a series of logical thoughts….
N
le
Rod said,
December 14, 2009 @ 6:01 pm
Neville,
is that Templar or Hospitaller - please tell me Hopsitaller as I’m starting to go dizzy . . .
Too late - I’ve fainted
Best
Rod
Rod said,
December 14, 2009 @ 6:16 pm
Very good
chris keyworth said,
December 14, 2009 @ 6:36 pm
TA 2779 0886 “Toot Hill” natural knoll formally surmounted by possible barrow, skeletons found “soon after 1903″ during sand extraction, “bones and earthenware”, at (or near) Toot Hill found a century previously. Now levelled.
A complete lower human jaw, labeled “from Danish Tumulus, Toot Hill, 1904″ is in Grimsby Municipal offices. An Urn is reported to be in there too.
N Loughlin and KR Miller A Survey of Archaeological sites in Humberside..
chris
Amiguru said,
December 14, 2009 @ 9:24 pm
Rod,
Seriously, Knights Templar’s Hospital of St John of Jerusalem , one and the same thing. My hunch is, that is the location for it.
Regards,
N
le
Rod said,
December 15, 2009 @ 7:53 am
Neville,
this clearly is very exciting and has to be the subject of and investigation and separate article.
Many thanks
Rod
Amiguru said,
December 15, 2009 @ 9:18 am
Rod,
Not sure about a seperate article but of course that is your choice. I shall present the evidence this evening as I am currently at work. The Oliver’s map I supplied is involved so you may choose to keep the issue here. Sorry to feed this in piecemeal but I know you like an element of suspense and intrigue.
Regards,
N
le
Amiguru said,
December 15, 2009 @ 6:58 pm
Thanks Rod,
Well here goes. [edited by site owner - too good to be lost in comments]
Amiguru said,
December 29, 2009 @ 6:14 pm
Rod,
Just for the record:
Grimsby & District Archaeological Research Society - Gazetteer of Bronze Age Finds in N.E. Lincs.
“COATES LITTLE..TA 20 NW.; RNH MSS Round barrow at Toohill now destroyed..B/A urn was found-now lost..Flints.”
N
le
Rod said,
December 29, 2009 @ 6:44 pm
That’s superb Neville
TA 20 NW is that a grid location ?
Amiguru said,
December 29, 2009 @ 9:50 pm
Hi Rod,
Yes I believe so but it’s omly a very rough guide i.e. NW corner of TA 20 square. No use for identifying Toote Hill’s location exactly. I posted it for the statement facts rather than the location.
Regards,
le
N
Amiguru said,
January 4, 2010 @ 7:59 pm
Rod,
Found another quote from Rev. G. Oliver in his book, “The Existing Remains of the Ancient Britons…….” 1845
Speaking of Teut Hills: “There is a remarkable hill with this name at Little Coates, near Grimsby. It consists of a magnificent mound thrown up on the summit of a lofty eminence, which commands a very extensive view of the surrounding country.”
In continuum,
le
N
Rod said,
January 5, 2010 @ 8:26 am
Neville,
another one for the bag and an interesting variant on the spelling of the name
Best
Rod
Amiguru said,
January 5, 2010 @ 8:56 am
Rod,
Yes, what’s more, he connects the root word with the etymology of Tattershall Castle!
Regards,
N
le
Amiguru said,
January 6, 2010 @ 3:12 pm
Toote Hill…Lat. Hill 53° 33′ 38″N Long. 0° 07′ 06″W Just west of the end of Peterhouse Rd.
Rod said,
January 8, 2010 @ 7:58 pm
What’s this
What’s that next to Toote Hill
While we’re at it do we know exactly what the two squares are ?
Defensive perhaps ?
Amiguru said,
January 8, 2010 @ 9:11 pm
Rod,
Can you imagine the turmoil my brain is in…….on Monday I have a committee meeting of the local history society here in Essex. I’m trying to sort things for that meeting while doing research on all these Lincolnshire sites. You might say my brain is in Essex while my heart is in Lincolnshire
Anyway, more to the point; yes I know that is a significant question. I am being a little retiscent about it as a lot ‘depends’. Some time ago I mooted to you the idea that it could be St. Michael’s as the significant line touching it is at the right angle to align with the road. That may well still be the case but it depends on the scale measurement of Toote Hill. Toote Hill…Lat. Hill 53° 33′ 38″N Long. 0° 07′ 06″W Just west of the end of Peterhouse Rd. stated abouve gives a rough centre point to Toote Hill’s location but of course it’s size is critical in determining what the other structures are. If the circumference was 2000 feet then the diameter has to be roughly 636 feet. Try drawing a circle that size and to scale on the modern map, centred on the spot. A rough test of this puts the extent of the hill in a NW direction as cutting through the houses to the west of Littlecoates Road, by the roundabout. On that basis the rectangle is too close to be Littlecoates Church. I know what you would like it to be Rod! but we must be doggedly objective and methodical over this.
As to the other two rectangles; who knows at this stage. We have established that it is fairly certain that Toote means ‘lookout’ and such a position would presumably have its main defences on the hill rather than below it.
Might I suggest that your next move Rod, should be to determine where the significant stones came from as well as the substantial ‘footings’ and plot these on the map to see if they could tie in?
Regards,
le
N
Rod said,
January 9, 2010 @ 8:42 am
Neville,
It’s out of place for what I would hope it to be
I wonder mainly because it is marked on the map and so little else is - presumably it must therefore be worth adding to the map.
Secondly as the map relates almost solely to the hills my presumption would be it is strongly connected to the hills.
As to St Michael’s Neville one consideration I have is that the current site is not the original site !
That could answer why there ‘appears’ to be evidence for a church nearby.
Although churches rarely move position they do sometimes.
Might I suggest that your next move Rod, should be to determine where the significant stones came from as well as the substantial ‘footings’ and plot these on the map to see if they could tie in
I should like to get into the grounds of Chapel Field so I’m on the look out to catch the oil company surveyors - who knows what they know as well !
What a game
Best
Rod
Rod said,
March 14, 2010 @ 7:31 pm
Picture Update
This is a postcard kindly sent in by Peter Mullins, I’ll let him describe the view etc
Monument to Docea Chapman in St Michael’s churchyard
Peter Mullins said,
March 14, 2010 @ 7:47 pm
Docea Chapman died in 1891 in Zurich and her very rich husband Joseph had two of these made; one stands on her grave in Switzerland and the other commemorates her in Little Coates. His grave now stands next to this monument and his legacy paid for the building of the modern church spliced on to the ancient one.
At this time very few people lived in Little Coates; eleven dwellings are listed in the 1881 cenus, the largest (and only surviving one of which) was the Farmhouse (which is now the Golf Club) which is at the extreme right of the picture. The smudge on the horizon on the far left may be Grimsby as it is on the right bearing for St James’. We are looking a little south of east.There is no need to decribe the view much further as the striking thing is how empty it is!
But look just on the left of the farmhouse. Is that Toothill with great white gashes in it as sand is extracted for building work? There certainly seems to be high ground where there is no high ground today, the location fits Amiguru’s reference, and we know this was the period when it was levlled for building materials. But other indications are that it was a little further over to the left (hidden behind the statue? already levelled by the time the picture was taken? not actually tall enough to make a visible impact from this distance?).
Rod said,
March 15, 2010 @ 8:12 am
Peter,
it’s a fabulous image and very interesting indeed.
It’s not easy for me to tell but is there perhaps a rise in the ground far left on the horizon as well ?
I’ll take a walk down this morning and have a look at the lie of the land
All comments welcome on this and any other theory
Also old photographs or cards are desperately wanted - can you help ?
Great find Peter
Regards
Rod
Rod said,
March 15, 2010 @ 11:00 am
Peter,
, I’ll go back this afternoon with a superwide angle lens and see if you can get the shot - I suspect it may be possible.
I’ve just returned and my initial thought when stood there was the farmhouse wouldn’t have been in the shot.
I had my camera but a long lens, just in case there were bats in the belfry
Best
Rod
[Addition at 1pm]
Just returned Peter, I can’t see it being the farmhouse, I’m thinking the building is near the rear of the petrol station but I’m pretty sure it must be church side of the main road.
I’m off back yet again - this time with a compass
Rod said,
March 15, 2010 @ 5:05 pm
3rd trip completed today !
This time went with a compass, laptop, mobile broadband, maps, overlays and a print of the original picture.
I think you’re right about it being the farmhouse Peter !
When you stand in the place the original picture was taken it feels impossible to take a picture and get what is now the golf course clubhouse in frame - however the maps tell a different story.
It’s been a great exercise for me in realising what appears to be on the ground isn’t always so.
As to the ‘white marks’ being Toote Hill . . . I’m not so sure Peter, I still think it may have been in and around the area of the petrol station - all opinions and ideas warmly welcomed
Docea Chapman Memorial
Peter Mullins said,
March 15, 2010 @ 9:36 pm
I’m glad to get you so actively engaged! We’d done the work with the compass ourselves so are sure about the Farmhouse (but we were also very surprised that this was the case).
The four faces of the memorial face aprox N, S, E and W. It is the west face in front of us with the inscription on it. Similar compass work puts the petrol station site (just south of east of the monument) somewhere quite near the monument in our line of site. So the white ovals are about where the Hotel Elizabeth is (if they are haystacks or something like that) or across the road from there (if they are cuttings into higher ground).
It is the higher ground which puzzles me because it doesn’t seem to be higher ground now.
Rod said,
March 16, 2010 @ 8:08 am
Peter,
it was a great day and I thank you for being the catalyst. I proved very valuable for me in as much as it made me aware just how easy it is to be fooled by your basic senses.
I actually got a local GY map on the ground where the picture was taken, along with Google maps and a compass and the line of the farmhouse was about south easterly I thought.
I’m also intrigued by the ‘rise’ to the left and the objects in the background
It’s a real find this picture and will yield more yet I feel
Regards
Rod
Peter Mullins said,
March 19, 2010 @ 12:19 pm
I think I’m wrong (words perhaps I don’t type often enough, but it is Lent). I walked up Rosemary Avenue just now and noticed for the first time just how much of a slope it is. So, in the interests of both acdemic research and of pentitence, I crouched down flat at the top of the rise and could just about see that ground level there is about first floor level at the Golf Club. So the horizon behind the Golf Club viewed from the Chapman momument would look today as it did in the postcard (if trees and houses were not now in the way). Who would have thought it? The white blobs are most likely to be something like haystacks situated about where the Hotel Elizabeth now is.
Rod said,
March 19, 2010 @ 12:43 pm
Peter,
That same local citizen that was baptized in St Michael’s incidentally
Rosemary Avenue - did you see the Blue Plaque on the wall of one of the houses ?
It marks birthplace of a notable local citizen
It too have walked around that area just to ‘get a feel’ of the area the overall height is considerably greater than one might imagine - little wonder it was the location for for fortified hills and the like.
Standing by the Freshney and looking up to the Golf Course is also quite striking in terms of height.
There must be some old photographs about which would show us more, look at the one Steve sent in which is in the OP - if only that were a wider shot
I am still hoping to get a look around the grounds of Chapel Field House with a bit of luck and I still run the risk of suspiciously looking in the gardens around there when I walk passed hoping to see carved stone in the rockery !
Best
Rod
Amiguru said,
March 19, 2010 @ 9:07 pm
Rod & Peter,
I don’t know how much of the text accompanying the OP Steve furnished but here is the relevant part from the source:
“The writer’s notebook contains an account of a visit to the Toot Hill at Little Coates, near Grimsby, in December, 1903. The church of Little Coates, which is probably of early foundation, though only the featureless chancel arch of the present building dates before the Perpendicular Period, is about one-third of a mile distant. This Toot Hill (Fig. 19) is a huge mound with an irregular ground plan, but the upper portion has an elliptical contour. It is composed chiefly of sand and sandy clays, which seem to belong to the late Glacial Period. A sand pit which was being worked at the base of one side of the hill, yielded broken and comminuted specimens of Ostrea, Tellina, and other marine shells. Towards the summit, however, there were undoubted signs of man’s work. A slight fall of snow had rendered discernible a shallow trench which encompassed the hill slope. One could also pick out, near the base, the radial ridges and furrows of some old-time plough, but even these had not quite obliterated the trench. A few small flint flakes were detected on a patch bare of turf. One suspects that this hill served both as a beacon and a watch-tower when the Humber and the North Sea were nearer the spot, and when Grimsby was represented by a string of islets lying amid the waters of a lagoon. This condition of the landscape is known to have prevailed during the early historic period. The capping of the mound covers, mayhap, the dust of more than one celebrity. Bones and earthenware were found at, or near, this spot a century ago, and soon after the visit just described skeletons were dug up in the sand pit. The ultimate fate of these skeletons, and their determinations, could not be ascertained. Perchance this toot-hill will remind the visitor of the cremation of Beowulf, and the mound which ” the Weders people wrought on the hill,” after the funeral-pyre which they had kindled had ceased to glow.”
The caption to the picture is thus:
“FIG. 19. The Toot Hill, Little Coates, Lincolnshire. View from the North-
Eastern boundary. The basal portion of the hill is entirely natural, and is now
being excavated for sand. The upper portion, surmounted by the tree, has been
modified artificially.”
Relevant statistics:
St. Michael’s to Clubhouse…649 yards
St. Michael’s to front parking bays at the trawl…586 yards
One third of a mile = 586.666 yards
All, ‘as-the-crow-flies’
Regards,
Neville
Rod said,
March 20, 2010 @ 8:09 am
Neville,
very interesting, very interesting indeed.
I think if you walked around the area and was told there was once a big hill here everybody would pick the same spot - roughly around the roundabout itself and the approach to it from St Michaels - the area rises, or falls away, from that point in all directions.
Little Coates and Great Coates roads appear unchanged in direction today when compared to the 1824 OS map.
Clearly the didn’t dig the road up so Steve’s picture must be around that road which leaves, petrol station to the Trawl public house or Chapel Field House.
The area in and around the former Shell garage, (the land in between has an access to a former small holding) last few houses and land to rear seems a decent bet to me.
View from the North-Eastern boundary
That’s tantalizing Neville !
This is a fabulous thread IMHO - I’ll take another walk round the area I think
Many thanks Neville - always greatly appreciated>
All the best
Rod
David Smith said,
March 20, 2010 @ 2:49 pm
Glad to see that Neville is back.
Dave
Amiguru said,
March 20, 2010 @ 5:45 pm
Rod,
“Just another brick in the wall”
Get ready to celebrate……
I think I have cracked it. There’s a bold statement if you like. I shall now go and write my thesis, e-mail an image to you tonight, then add my commentary tomorrow morning if I may. I think you might say that, indeed, ‘The devil is in the details’.
Thanks for the comment Dave.
Regards,
Neville
Rod said,
March 20, 2010 @ 7:16 pm
Neville,
I work on the principal:
If you’re gonna make a statement - make it bold one !
I’m already rubbing my hands Neville, drop me an email with whatever you want me to do and it’ll be done by the morning
Best
Rod
Rod said,
March 21, 2010 @ 8:06 am
Very Kindly Sent in by Neville, with text to follow, this should be good . . . !
Amiguru said,
March 21, 2010 @ 8:53 am
Rod et al,
The location of the approximate ‘centre’ of Toote Hill has eluded us so far, despite, concerted efforts by us as a group, tantalising glimpses of feasible evidence and submissions of plausible theories. I therefore posed the question of myself: What would we have, ideally, that would resolve this? There may well be several answers but the first one coming to mind was fairly obviously –
a reliable map with Toote Hill marked on it together with identifiable features.
I next set about checking all the historic maps of the area that we have accumulated over the last six months or so. Nothing of any use there other than what we know. I then decided to have another look at www.old-maps.co.uk and lo and behold there it was! Half hidden by the ‘OLD MAPS’ logo is a hill feature with a height of 46ft beneath it. Next question - how can the building and apparent workings in Peter’s photo be accommodated? Well, to the North of Littlecoates Lane is a building with, to the east of it, what looks like an indication of quarrying, (beyond the rectangular enclosure). Could this fit Peter’s image? If a line of sight is taken from St. Michael’s to the above building, then the ‘earthworks’ would indeed appear just to the left of it. My attention then turned to dates, to ensure that all this was plausible.
The ‘Old Maps’ image is dated 1890 and is reliable as it is based on the Ordnance Survey maps of the time. The actual surveying would of course have been done a few years prior to publication, so the indicated extent of the workings would have been less on the survey than in reality by 1890.
Peter’s photo is dated probably within a few years of the death of Docea Chapman in 1891 and the little gate in Rod’s photo of G. Burwood’s painting of 1890 although slightly different in style is in the right place.
In the close-up photo of the workings that Steve supplied, they seems quite extensive but that would be in order as the picture was taken in 1903, and is from Walter Johnson’s book ‘Byways in British Archaeology, (1912). Johnson was a Fellow of the Geographical Society and so should be fairly reliable.
Further to all this, there is the Oliver map to be considered as we have no certainty of the reliability as to accuracy of it regarding positions, scale and detail of features. All in all, I think we have determined by several items above in this thread that we can put some trust in his map, (drawn by Rev. W. Smith). More of this in my next post.
My next thought was how am I to present all of this for the consideration of the team. I decided to use layering to clarify as much as possible the correlation of the various features, past and present.
My first problem was the ‘OLD MAPS’ logo so I used blue filtering to reduce this to a minimum.
Taking a screenshot of the appropriate area on Google Maps I cropped it to size then increased its transparency to 75%.
I did a screenshot of the ‘Old Maps’ image and kept the transparency at 0%.
Adjusting the two layers for size and orientation, (there was a discrepancy of a degree or two), I then merged them and cropped the resultant image again.
I decided to label the relevant features for ease of identification and they are thus:
‘A’ is the farmhouse in Peter’s photo.
‘B’ is the workings into the hill.
‘C’ is the top mound of Toote Hill, (I think).
There are other tiny clues such as the indication of embankment on the eastern side of Littlecoates Road close to the turning into Littlecoates Lane, (go to Toote Hill roundabout on GoogleMaps and use Street View to look down Littlecoates Road and you will see that there is an un-natural camber to the right). Then there is a benchmark of 25 feet in Littlecoates Farm. Are both the heights ‘above datum’ or is the hill height 46 feet above the surrounding area?
Sorry that Chapel Hill House doesn’t come into the equation Rod but it didn’t exist in the 1890’s; still, you still might find your gargoyles there.
As you will see, the modern map now fits perfectly to the old and some lucky person whose back garden is at 53° 53′ 40” N,
00° 07′ 07” W may well spot King Rod trying to erect the Toote Hill flag among their daffs!
Next task. To determine size, shape and position……that’s done too but I’ll add it as a later post.
Apologies to all for going on, but as I said ‘The devil etc.’
Regards,
Neville
Rod said,
March 21, 2010 @ 9:33 am
Neville,
I was going to say this is awesome but - ‘Beyond Awesome’ fits the bill rather better I think.
I need to digest this and also abandon my Sunday morning plans.
The first few points that come to mind - quick and unconsidered.
Chapel Hill House is ‘modern’ my interest in it was the name, or rather why the name, and the fact that carved stone work has been supposedly found there during landscaping
A: the farmhouse looks interesting, I think that might be something to do with Pettifers, I can find out more later today
What’s interesting about A Neville is that it fits in perfectly with my initial ideas following Peter’s great postcard discovery - those were my initial thoughts on the ground - however the map and compass suggested otherwise.
I need to go back yet again
Staggering stuff Neville, really it is
Thanks and regards - more input later
Rod
Rod said,
March 21, 2010 @ 3:31 pm
More News
I’ve walked up there again and there are some observations which can be made ‘from the ground’ but for now here’s some info about the area from my father including what is perhaps his finest hour (other than siring me of course) information on a wall which I find really compelling
The Wall Around Chapel Field House
My father suggests it was built using the stone from the farmhouse at the point marked roughly A on Neville’s map above. The wall is also topped with pan tiles which would have been the roof of the old farmhouse when it was demolished after being acquired by Petiffer.
The Chapel Field House was built by Pettifer, later fully renovated by his son, who also owned, along with most of Cromwell Road houses, the petrol station across the road (when it was independent and merely a wooden shed and a pump) the land next to it on which there was a market garden and the newer build semi-detached houses (this is St Michael’s side)
2 More Farmhouse
There was also a farmhouse where the Golf Clubhouse is, this is the one we’ve been talking about before.
Add to that a farmhouse on the other side of the road facing the Humber Royal hotel.
That farmhouse was for Parker’s Farm and the 4 farm cottages that served it stood where St Margaret’s nursing home is today.
It was from one of those cottages that my stone came from
That farm extended from the back of Rosemary Avenue taking in the land alongside Cambridge Road all the way to the waterworks.
The Little Coates Land Company
Possibly owned by Major Bemrose, need to check that, who bought the land from W.A. Gilbey who were of Gilbey’s Gin fame.
That company was bought out by a local builder F.A. Would and included that land from St Margaret’s nursing home all the way up to the corner of Cambridge Road and all that land to the back of Rosemary Ave etc.
The land now occupied by a supermarket and houses alongside Cambridge road was offered to the local council gratis if they built a children’s playground on it - the council declined !!!!
The land on which the Grimsby Masonic Hall sits was donated to the Freemason’s by F.A. Would.
I fancy walking back there again
and getting a picture of the wall - a great call by my father !
All addition comments and opinions always welcomed
All the best
Rod
Amiguru said,
March 21, 2010 @ 4:29 pm
Rod,
We drive you to great lengths don’t we? However, you don’t half make it hard for me in return with references such as ” where St Margaret’s nursing home is today.” Don’t forget I’ve been in exile for 30 years now! ( and yes, I do pay tax!)
Its damn hard work in those circumstances; all I can say is thank goodness for Google Maps and as for Street View….BLESS YOU!
I wasn’t implying that there had never been an old building on the Chapel Field site, just that there wasn’t one, apparently, in 1890, according to that map. Keep up the good work on the hoof.
Regards,
Neville
Peter Mullins said,
March 21, 2010 @ 5:55 pm
Haven’t much time today to engage fully in this, so these are random observations.
I think Neville’s C is very likely to be correct for the centre of Toot Hill itself; I’ve mentioned before that the 1908 OS map gives the sandpit at this point, and we know that it was Toot Hill which Gilbey was excavating for building sand.
The height of 46 feet also explains soemthing which has puzzled me - why maps with 25 foot contour intervals don’t show up the tp of Toot Hill at any of the suggested locations.
Yes, the position of the churchyard gate in the Burwood painting of 1880 and the later postcard of is the same; I only realised this when today I went back to stand near the spot from which the pinting would have been made, so thanks for making me do this.
But I’m not yet convinced that the Farmhouse on the postcard is the one he marks as A. First, A is at 110 degrees from north when measured from the the monument, but standing at the position from which the picture was taken 110 degrees would be close to or behind the angel’s wing - this might indicate that Toothill is hidden behind the monument and/or the picture dates from, say, 1910 by which time it had been levelled. Secondly, of the eleven dwellings in the parish listed in the 1881 census only one major Farmhouse is listed (which is the Golf Club one) which makes me doubt that the building at A was larger than an agricultural workers cottage. Thirdly, despite what Neville asserts, I don’t think that his map does show that B would appear left of A when viewed from St Michael’s.
A Chrystine (or Christyne) Pettifer has just died aged 99 - some relatives have been in touch with me about a legacy for the church and told me her first name was spelt with a ‘y’ - so I may have an opportunity to ask the family whether it knows any more.
Neville’s map seems to indiacte that Iive on part of the foothill of TooT Hill.
Rod said,
March 21, 2010 @ 7:11 pm
I have been back again today, for the second time !
Here’s the wall which wraps itself around Chapel Field House, the grounds, it stretches round the corner of the roundabout as well - it’s the most incredible wall - I cannot imagine what it would cost to build today
Chapel Field House Wall
The bricks are clearly older than any of the existing build in the area, church notwithstanding of course, note also the use of roofing tiles for the apex. I feel pretty confident that my father’s idea of this wall being built from the bricks of the farmhouse directly across the road (point A on Nev’s map above) carries a lot of weight.
I know this doesn’t affect the location of the hill but as Toothill is also an area a great piece of interest.
It does, however, become potentially interesting when considering what the possible building is marked on the Oliver map next to Toote Hill - half way down the comments check the map I’ve put there with the question in red on it.
Neville Sisson said,
April 2, 2010 @ 3:28 pm
Toote Hill Update
an image supplied and created by Neville
Overlay © Neville Sisson
Bearing in mind the principle that at all times in our historical/archaeological researches we endeavour to be as accurate as we can be and where possible cross-check and cross-reference everything to maintain credibility; I have attempted to insert Toote Hill into the current landscape.
Working on the assumption that, as far as can currently be determined, we have a reasonably accurate location for the peak of the hill, I have tackled the not undaunting task of sizing, orienting and positioning Oliver’s image of the hill correctly. If we had another image for comparison much more faith could be put in it but on the premise that it is the best we have, I am happy that the above image is as good as it gets.
Methodology:
My first challenge was to get the physical size and shape right and in correct proportion and I decided that old technology was the best resort to turn to for this purpose. What do we know about the size of the hill? According to Oliver, the perimeter was something like 2000 feet. The hill was somewhat pear-shaped and so to get the sizing right I started with a piece of string just over 2 metres in length and tied it into a loop of exactly 2 metres. This gave me a scale of 1mm to a foot. Then, with Oliver’s image on my computer screen, I laid the string out on my lounge floor and emulated the shape as accurately as possible. I then measured the diameter of the ’round’ bit, which came out at 176mm which converted into 176 yards!
The next move was to open up various web based mapping sites to see how the diameter determined would lay on the ground as it were. This all looked promising and so I used some of my graphics programs to ‘cut out’ Oliver’s hill and layer it over the previously annotated map/image. After sizing it correctly, positioning it and orienting it accordingly, I increased the transparency of the hill image and merged the layers to give what you see above.
There is a slight discrepancy in the position of the ‘peak’ on the map and that on Oliver’s drawing but I feel that this could be allowed considering that his map was not surveyed to the standards of even the late victorian O.S. map.
It’s over to you guys now to be the judges.
Regards,
Neville
Rod said,
April 2, 2010 @ 6:05 pm
Neville,
that’s some piece of work - hats off and that’s a fact !
Two thing come to my mind most readily
1: That’s surely as good and close as it is possible to get with what we know - without something else turning up I think we have to take that ‘as is’
2: It looks right !
Technically very well plotted and reasoned Neville but ignoring that for a second - just look at the overlay map you produced.
It doesn’t look like an overlay - it looks as though it should be there
It’s a cracking piece of work Neville - QED ? it looks like it to me !
Best
Rod
Gillian Hallam said,
April 6, 2010 @ 8:54 pm
All this information has left me speechless, Me and my brother are researching our family tree and have a long history with Grimsby, I have been seaching for answers for a long time, but you have provided with so much.
Thank you to all.
An excellent website.
Rod said,
April 7, 2010 @ 9:06 am
Gillian
thaks for the comment and welcome to the site - pleased you found it of interest.
Hopefully there’s plenty more for you to see both already written in past artiocles and those to some in the future
All the best
Rod
Rod said,
May 25, 2010 @ 6:49 pm
Chapel Field House Update:
Below you’ll see a picture of the large ‘crater’ or hollow in the grounds of Chapel Field House by Toothill roundabout.
It’s on the left-hand side of the house and is really quite some size both in terms of area and depth.
What would be interesting to know is:
Does it pre date the house
If so what was it for
Why was it not filled in
The foreground of the picture shows almost a ramp type entrance to the ‘hole’ to the left, bricked up and going to what is now the house next door (once on land part of the original house grounds) appears to be what may be something like a water course or the like.
An effort has been made to landscape and terrace the sides and there are no signs of any remotely recent water content.
Is it a pond from way back or something contemporaneous with the house build ?
Either way it is a large and intriguing feature - opinions or information very keenly sought
Chapel Field House Grimsby
Sheila said,
July 12, 2010 @ 11:46 pm
Absolutely brilliant site. I have been reading everything on here now for about 5 hours! So very interesting stuff, and im definately going to look at the wall tomorrow. Keep it up guys….i want more of it! Well done.
Rod said,
July 13, 2010 @ 8:11 am
Sheila,
thanks for the kind words and welcome to the site. Hopefully there’s enough here to keep you interested for a while and enough new stuff going on to keep you coming back.
Thanks again Sheila
All the best
Rod
Rod said,
August 15, 2010 @ 5:32 pm
Pic Update
here’s the land behind Toothill and Rosemary Ave, background left, and off shot would be the actual hill itself.
That is how the ground, now built on, looked in December 1965 - how can I be so accurate . . .
That little bundle of joy is me, and the elegant slim woman is my mother - you can see where it get it from
Best
Rod
Amiguru said,
August 15, 2010 @ 7:46 pm
Rod,
Fabulous, and I bet you were thinking ” Move further round to the right Dad! - its going to be historically important!”
Oh and tell your Mum she’s gorgeous!
Regards,
Neville
Rod said,
August 15, 2010 @ 7:59 pm
Neville,
as a boy I used to go digging on that back field, near the Rifle Range, for old bottles.
I kept some, still have some, but others I took to a shop in Wellowgate to sell
They say you return to your roots . . .
Archaeology and making money in an unconventional way
As to my mother, I’ll tell her no such thing - it’ll go to her head
Cheers
Rod
Mick Deakin said,
August 15, 2010 @ 8:34 pm
From ‘Old Grimsby’ (The Rev. George Shaw)
….Toote Hill measures upwards of 2,000
feet in circumference at the base, is 270 feet
sloping height, and 100 feet in perpendicular
height to the very summit of the mound, and
contains nearly 6 acres of land….
Amiguru said,
August 15, 2010 @ 10:09 pm
Mick,
Thanks for that. If you check Rod’s original post at the top it states those statistics. Shaw got his information from Oliver’s book and personally, I have both in the original hardcopy editions, 1825 and 1897 respectively.
Regards,
Neville
Amiguru said,
August 15, 2010 @ 10:24 pm
Rod,
It’s a ‘double take’ moment!
If you accept that my overlay image above, (12 comments up), is positioned and oriented correctly; then the bank which runs away from it in an easterly direction on Oliver’s map, (near top of thread), should run across the field of your childhood. Lo and behold, in the photo of you as a baby, there it is in the middle distance
Observingly,
Neville
Rod said,
August 16, 2010 @ 8:49 am
Neville,
it is quite a spooky thing and given what I remember of digging around there the land would suggest you’re correct.
The thing I always had to keep telling myself was, as Mick’s comment reiterates, the size of the thing - it had some spread whereas we were looking for, if you like, an epicentre.
Cheers
Rod
Mick deakin said,
September 3, 2010 @ 1:04 pm
Rod,Neville,Chris,et Al
I’m researching these hills in connection with Brunanburh and I’m not having a great deal of luck finding material.
If there are any web sites,publications that might help, I would appreciate being pointed in that direction
As Rod knows, I am looking at Symeon of Durhams ‘We(o)ndune’ connection with the battle and I have found an area on the Flanders coast identified as ‘Wenduine’ or ‘Wenduyne’
The history of the place can be traced back at least to the 11th century and the place name is thought to be connected to Celtic settlers - hence Wen Dune - white hill. There is one of the tallest sand dunes on the Flanders coast in this area at 100 foot high. and the hill is strategically placed. (Napoleon used the hill as a signalling point overlooking the channel)
I know the above hills were used as beacons/look out hills and that there was brythonic settlement in the area. The connection between Wendune and Wenduine looks to close to be coincidental. Could Symeons Wendune be a lost name for one of these hills?
In their time they would have certainly stood prominently in the landscape.
Rod said,
September 3, 2010 @ 1:43 pm
Mick,
there is very little information on these hills, certainly everything that I and others oucld find or work out etc is on here - there’s no useful resource that I know of that would help you I’m afraid.
Regards
Rod
Amiguru said,
September 3, 2010 @ 10:49 pm
Mick,
Not sure if it is of any use to you in this quest but you can download Oliver’s “Monumental Antiquities……” in pdf or epub format here:
books.google.co.uk/books?id=tW0PAAAAYAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=%22monumental+antiquities+of+great+grimsby%22&source=bl&ots=_7V6Dm2jOy&sig=u8BdMMcZZImPy295HkA-QIxE8p4&hl=en&ei=RGiBTP3mO8aa4AaZz5zTCw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CBgQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false
You wont be able to see the full map but you could use it in conjunction with the scan above of my original. Hope this helps.
Regards,
Neville
Rod,
Sorry about the hyperlink but it would be useful for anyone interested in Grimsby to have a copy. They can then understand ‘where we are coming from’ in more ways than one!
Neville
Mick Deakin said,
September 4, 2010 @ 6:57 am
Appreciate the link Neville - and I have downloaded the book. I dont like reading these books page by page on my laptop, so I shall print off and bind.
Rod,
This is a gem of a site and is becoming addictive, hope my missus don’t get too lonely at night
Many Thanks
Mick
Rod said,
September 4, 2010 @ 8:44 am
Hi Mick,
thanks for the kind words - it’s really appreciated and encouraging - hopefully it will go on to get better yet
Best
Rod
David said,
September 5, 2010 @ 11:19 pm
Nice,interesting site.As a kid (pushing 50 now) I often went to the Seven Hills.I know a lot of others did too.Never knew it was an actual historical subject.Having said that,surely the hills we visited as children is close to where you guys are talking about.As a boy I always wondered why it was called the Seven Hills,as even allowing for the counting of faces it was never more than five!Could anyone tell me why the huge dip in the land is there?A lot of it backfilled now.Was this from relatively new industrial work?If old,surely such an hill as described would need to come from somewhere and the excavation required to create the hill would leave the large dip close by?
Rod said,
September 6, 2010 @ 8:19 am
David,
thanks for the comment and welcome to the site. I met somebody a while ago who referred to ‘7 Hills’ and said he used to play there as a child. Are you referring to the land that was bordered by Cambridge Rd, Rosemary Ave etc.
Had the rifle range on it and the waterworks to rear ?
Best
Rod
dean said,
September 17, 2010 @ 12:11 pm
All these hills look very reminiscent of the ceremonial landscape of the gypsy race with the freshney forming the focus. I think this could be something really important.
Rod said,
September 17, 2010 @ 4:54 pm
Dean,
thanks for the comment and welcome to the site - I firmly believe there’s an awful lot more to these hills than is currently known - I think they were very important sites indeed
Cheers
Rod
dean said,
September 20, 2010 @ 9:11 am
I can’t believe that they were in anyway defensive in nature as I can’t think of anything comparable in the atlantic west. One is obviously reminded of Silbury Hill given there apparant size. Given the Brythonic name associated with one it must be pre-roman at least. Is there any evidence of standing stones around the area. Could the blue stone at Immingham, the Grim stone be connected
Rod said,
September 20, 2010 @ 10:21 am
Dean,
it’s the fact that there is so little comparable to the 7 Hills which really intrigues me - I firmly believe it was an area of far greater importance to ancient people than we realise today.
Not sure about a connection between the stones but why not ?
Best
Rod
Mick deakin said,
September 20, 2010 @ 12:49 pm
Dont know if this is an appropriate thread to air the following on Rod,However; I’ve just starting reading Grimms Teutonic Mythology & Folklore.
An absoloutely fascinating read and one that may give detailed insight into placenames that have their origins in early anglo-saxon / scandinavian beliefs.
I’m really excited at the moment as I’ve stumbled onto something that could blow wide open the thinking on
Brun(n)anburh.
Dare not elaborate too much at the moment for fear of making an idiot of myself
Will keep everybody informed as and when things develop !
Mick
Amiguru said,
September 20, 2010 @ 2:24 pm
Mick,
“Dare not elaborate too much at the moment for fear of making an idiot of myself”
Fear not, I for one, am doing it quite frequently…..I prefer to call it ‘thinking out loud’ and don’t have a problem with it. Even if you make mistakes, everyone can see your logic and subsequent modification of ideas as other information comes to light. Better to let others see your progressions I think so that they can follow your logic and not get too bored as can be the case if you save it all up and then blurt it all out in a coherent but protracted manner.
I have found people on this blog very understanding, (and at times amused), by my ramblings. OK as long as you can offer logical explanations of why you think something, even if it turns out to be wrong.
Fortune, they tell me, favours the brave; so I just put my head on the block and see what developes.
Regards,
Neville
Rod said,
September 20, 2010 @ 8:30 pm
Hi Mick,
feel free to, as Neville says, think out loud - best to trty and keep specific things to threads the directly relate to though as we don’t want the information getting ‘lost’ as it were.
I personally feel a half article is better than a complete one - I do it all the time on here.
It leaves room for comments and more information - tons of stuff comes out off the back of simple ideas and suggestions
Cheers
Rod
Mick Deakin said,
September 25, 2010 @ 10:36 pm
Rod,
I am presently reading an article ‘ Vikings in Ireland & Scotland in the Ninth Century’ by Donnchadh O Corrain.
The paper is quite lengthy, forty pages to be precise, and contains some very interesting subject matter. Within the text, I have found yet another etymological link that may help me out with Brunnanburh. However, in this instance, it is something else that has caught my eye, and may or may not bear some relevance to the above Toot Hill thread.
I may be completely ‘off piste’ on this one Rod, but here goes:-
There is mentioned several times within the article an area of the Viking kingdom called ‘Lochlainn’ but also known as ‘Lothlend’ ‘Laithlind’ and ‘Laithlinn’
This area,place, region or whatever, has not been identified - but there are several suggestions that place it in Scandinavian Scotland. (this a generalised comment on my part - the author goes into much greater detail).
The bit that has caught my eye in all of this is an extract from a saga called ‘Cath Ruis na Rig’ pertaining to aspects of Viking history in Ireland.
I reproduce a small part of the translation (where the hero Conall Cernach is levying a tribute)
“…. to the seven sons of Romra, to il, to ile, to Mael, to Muile, to Abram mac Romrach, to Cet mac Romrach, to Celg mac Romrach…”
There is also mention of Scythia, Dacia, Gothia, Northmannia, The Ictian Sea and the Tyrrhenian Sea.
Here the author links Scythia to Sweden, Dacia to Denmark, Gothia to Gotland , Northmannia to Norway, The Ictian Sea as the English Channel and the Tyrrhenian Sea as the Mediterranean.
The hero Conall Cernach is thus attempting to put ALL the remote Viking lands under tribute. Now we know that about this time, the Vikings were not only raiding, but colonising the East side of the country, so somewhere lost or included amongst all the above should be the areas around the Humber.
Then I noted that the author was “puzzled” by the reference to the ‘Seven Sons of Romra’ and thought that they may have place-name aetiologies with some of the islands around the coast of Scotland. And then I looked below the main text at the reference list for the translation of ‘Romra’ - A Tidal Estuary
And then I remembered this from the ‘Monumental Antiquities of Great Grimsby’
“…Here are seven stations of very superior magnitude; and it is much to be doubted whether the same number of artificial hills can be found in any part of England, of equal dimensions, and situated as these are, in the immediate vicinity of each other…”
Like I said - I may be way off the mark here folks, but I could not resist stoking up the flames of the Toot Hill beacons once more
Mick
Mick Deakin said,
September 25, 2010 @ 11:24 pm
Oh dear me Rod - this has just escalated to the point of near spontaneous combustion.
I have just returned to reading the ‘Monumental Antiquities of Great Grimsby’
In chapter iv on page 35 the author is talking about one of the hills ‘Holm Hill’
“….At the further extremity, a bank was thrown up which connected this station with the religious hill adljoining, and with the Roman Fosse-Way; and is still distinguished by its primitive name of ‘KET bank’ which was bestowed upon it by the early Britons…”
CET mac Romrach
KET Bank
Mick Deakin said,
September 25, 2010 @ 11:54 pm
Am I now hallucinating - it getting rather late !!
MILL (hill) - Page 48 ‘Monumental Antiquities of Great Grimsby’
MUILE
ELLYLL - Page 57 ‘Monumental Antiquities of Great Grimsby’
IL-ILE
Surely this cannot be coincidence Rod !!!
Rod said,
September 26, 2010 @ 9:17 am
Mick,
I was reading the first comment with interest until I came to ‘Seven Sons of Romra’
then I nearly fell off my chair - I read the other 2 comments with my hand over my mouth - I think you’ve hit onto something special here Mick - we’ve got to take this further.
This is very exciting
A stunned Rod
Rod said,
September 26, 2010 @ 9:19 am
Everybody see above:
Important 3 comments from Mick - any languauge bits jump out to you Neville ?
Best
Rod
Mick Deakin said,
September 26, 2010 @ 10:00 am
For those interested, the online version of the article is :-
http://***.ucc.ie/chronicon/ocorr2.htm (replace *** with www)
I have to be careful of information overload here, but I am also now looking at the‘Lothlend’ ‘Laithlind’ and ‘Laithlinn’ aspect of the article.
An academic named David Greene suggested that ‘Loth’ - ‘Lath’ is from an Irish word meaning quagmire/marsh. The author believes ‘lend’ ‘lind’ or ‘linn’ to mean Land.
This whole could then be interpreted as Land of the marshes/quagmires ?
Maybe we could have a connection with the ‘Lind’ of Lindsey ?
How very exciting
Rod said,
September 26, 2010 @ 10:18 am
Mick,
I’ve been looking into it this morning and it feels . . . I don’t know, tantalizingly close - dare I say possibly even right.
Either way everything I read seems to make it possible - as you say very exciting
Best
Rod
Amiguru said,
September 26, 2010 @ 10:59 am
Mick,
Nice work and I shall observe and absorb for a little while as I am so busy with other irons in the fire. A word of caution, Oliver was seemingly an honest and meticulous historian, however, he was deep into Masonry, Druids and tippy-toed on the verge of the occult. This is fine but keep a sieve handy.
Regards,
Neville
Mick Deakin said,
September 26, 2010 @ 11:06 am
I am in good company then Neville - I used to collect packs of Tarot Cards, and books on the subject and even made several sets of my own Runes !!
Im a fully fledged member of the Golden Dawn
Got the biggest sieve you’ve ever laid eyes on - attached to my waist Neville !!
I understand exactly what you mean - Mick
Steve... said,
September 26, 2010 @ 1:53 pm
Well said Mick… I like your style and open minded approach… keep to it.
Kate said,
October 8, 2010 @ 3:18 pm
Hello All,
please forgive me for throwing my 6penneth into the ring? I’d like to comment on the possible etymology of the name of Toote Hill.
Esp. given the Bronze age finds in the hill mentioned above, it jumped out as coming from Brythonic “Teuta” - this has several spellings so won’t list them all here. Toot or Tut is sometimes used in conjuction with local place names of burial mounds & barrows in other parts of the country, as is hoo, howe and a whole pile of other spellings dependant on local pronunciation(which makes me wonder if Mick’s search for Scotthough (sp?) could be linked to Scartho (poss O.E or O.N. “mound of the Comorant/Merganser”) especially given the randomness of spelling in medieval times - yes it really is common to find the same word spelled several ways in Medieval documents - there are several reasons why). Hoo, howe et al come I believe from the O.E root word “haugr” which simply means mound or hillock. It’s known that the pagan Anglo-Saxons and Danes often re-used much older burial mounds for their own inhumations…
Teut(plus whatever suffix you wish) basically means ‘ (of) the people’, but can also be linked to Teutates/Toutatis, one of the ancient Bronze age deities (written about by Julius Caesar and Lucan and yes, the one that Obelix calls upon frequently for you comics fans…) This root is found in our modern words “teuton, teutonic” etc, which basically mean - “the people”. There is much argument as to whether Toutates was simply just the deity of the people (in a way similar to a tribal deity) or a deity similar to Mercury (Caesar), Mars (Lucan) or ???
So, was it just a burial mound or a place of worship, or poss even a royal Dun with burials and worship on the site either from the same or an earlier civilisation group? (yes, they made me think of Silbury too)- Barrows and places of worship were sometimes one and the same… and sometimes mounds/barrows were built but contained no inhumation! Could Cun Hu could have been Cuna’s Haugr (the “Cun” prefix isn’t just limited to Cuneglas in ancient Brit names)? So the same question again especially as this area apparently had a noticeable ‘British’ presence that intermarried with Anglish(?) nobility even when the Angles took over…
Now I am going to crawl back into my hole…
P.S. Rod, this is a great site, I found it whilst trying to find out about abbeys, priories and the like in Grimsby after coming across a puzzle as to why there would be a medieval harness pendant with the cross of Burgundy on it in NE Lincs (it’s a long story…) Sorry I don’t fit your normal female demographic!
Will you allow me to make comment on your piece on Winteringham next if I’m allowed back? - I live there, btw. Decided to actually come out of said hole and make a comment rather than just e-mailing after reading your piece on readers who do just that…
Kate
Kate said,
October 8, 2010 @ 3:29 pm
Apologies again, for ancient Bronze age deity, should be Iron age (brain not working in forward gear), I don’t always like using the term Celt as it was made up by the Victorians and we don’t know what the people of the the time called themselves - exept “teuthan” perhaps (a guess at the suffix!)… We can assume they were of the Corieltavi tribal group… (Coritani is no longer used in archaeological circles
Rod said,
October 8, 2010 @ 4:01 pm
Kate,
fabulous !
welcoming you to the site is not enough after a comment like that - a fantastic addition - many thanks.
The etymology of these and other place names is truly fascinating and I feel absolutely sure that something very interesting and important is going to come of it
Now I am going to crawl back into my hole…
Oh no, comments like yours need to be in the open air not down holes Kate
Please do feel free to comment on Wintringham and indeed anything else you can spare the time or inclination on Kate.
In appreciation
Rod
PS. Make sure you have a copy of long commments Kate lest there’s an internet or database glitch when you hit submit
Kate said,
October 8, 2010 @ 4:04 pm
Sorry,
one last comment - I promise!
Mick, your author may be in error linking Scythia to Sweden - the Vikings were actually present in the area once known as Scythia as their trading/quest for wealth/plundering/whateveryawantocallit took them to many places, the route through Scythia was one of them - the map on Wikipedia will give you a rough idea of where it was - suggest you read the fabulous account of a Viking burial by Ibn Fadlan in the C10 - sorry this is the quickest link I could find, I really should be working, but working from home gives me a small amount of freedom!
http://***.primaryhistory.org/lessons/viking-burial-mound,120,RSC.html
-third file down, as before sub * for w
The burial bears some similarities to the much earlier Kurgan burials found in the area, as well as to other Viking burials in Northern Europe, but I digress… (I’m good at that)
Kate
History Hunter said,
October 8, 2010 @ 4:26 pm
“PS. Make sure you have a copy of long comments Kate lest there’s an internet or database glitch when you hit submit”
Just as an aside to the subject at hand, for anybody who uses Firefox there is a brilliant add-on available, called “Lazarus” which remembers everything you have typed in any given box on any site. Should the dreaded glitch hit you when you submit, all you do is right click in the specified box and voila!, everything you have recently typed reappears.
Now I’m going to crawl back into MY hole!
History Hunter said,
October 8, 2010 @ 4:27 pm
In fact, that was the second attempt at submitting that last comment, so actually used the very thing i was telling you about!
Kate said,
October 8, 2010 @ 5:40 pm
Many thanks for your welcomes!
Rod & HH
Being an old an’ wary owner/user of the species computer subspecies internet, I’ve learnt through bitter frustration and much gnashing of teeth to copy it all! … when I remember - did this time thankfully!!
I very rarely if ever leave comment on blogs/forums and the like, but was absolutely enthralled by this one and spent all evening reading it when I found it t’other day. I’m not local to the area by birth (Me, I do come from the West Countrey, oo arr), but have lived here for nearly 5 years & have a huge interest in it’s history and archaeology - there’s so much! I feel I could never know enough and it’s wonderful to read local accounts and find such interested and interesting people.
I “sort of” work in the field of archaeology; originally qualified as a graphic artist in the days before computers when you had to be able to draw (!), then later as stonemason/carver, but sadly never worked as one as my health took a downturn.
…I gave up trying to work out why there would be a harness pendant with a cross of Burgundy on it in the area, there are no answers to some mysteries…
I shall write a bit of what I know about Winteringham as soon as poss: Mr Kate has just come in so I have to go do domestic stuff now, like cook dinner and listen to/ignore him going on about guitars again (sorry Rod!) - there were lots of historical posts I wanted to add to - but I’ll restrain myself as best I can!
Kate
Rod said,
October 8, 2010 @ 6:20 pm
Kate,
I’m pleased you’re leaving comments here and you’re wise not to do so elsewhere
I’m envious of your artistic background Kate - I seem to be able to create little other more than a stir from time to time!
Feel no restraint Kate - the more the better!
Best
Rod
Mick Deakin said,
October 8, 2010 @ 6:33 pm
Hello Kate and most welcome might I add
You are quite correct regarding the Scythia link with Sweden, although I am wondering if the author was in some way relating to the following (rightly or wrongly)
” The empire of the Svear was in the territory around Lake Malar near where Stockholm is today. This empire “was called the Lesser Svithiod, or Sweden, in contrast to the Larger Svithiod, or Scythia, from whence they had emigrated” (Vol.1, page 79, Scandinavia by Andrew Crichton and Henry Wheaton).
Great Scythia was the area around the Black and Caspian Seas. When the Svear arrived in Scandinavia, they found the country already inhabited by “the Goths, who had emigrated thither at a remote period, veiled from the eyes of history,” says Henry Wheaton in his book History of the Northmen.
Best Regards and dearly hope to see you frequent these pages,
Mick
Mick Deakin said,
October 8, 2010 @ 6:42 pm
Rod,
You must put in a tremendous amount of time and effort in maintaining this site and I am sure I speak for everyone when I say I am most appreciative of this.
I am sure that sooner or later, we will, by our combined efforts solve at least some the historical ‘mysteries’ that abound
Mick
Rod said,
October 8, 2010 @ 7:13 pm
Mick,
there is a lot goes into it - a lot behind the scenes as well - its all worth it though !
Just scrolling down a thread like this fills me with immense joy and pride - the efforts of all those who participate and visit make all the difference.
I can almost touch the discovery you’re on the verge of Mick - if something substantial doesn’t emerge form what you’ve been posting on the site of late then I’ll eat my hat - and it’s a big hat
Thanks and regards
Rod
Paul said,
October 20, 2010 @ 1:05 am
Rod, having stumbled upon your site a few weeks ago( where i sent 5 hours reading it!!) . I thank you and everyone who has taken time and interest to piece togethor the history of Grimsby and surrounding areas. I was most impressed and intrigued with the information given and left me disireing more!
Since first reading your site i have told many others about it, who did look and where amazed by the information. Your site and commitment is too underground. Many people are missing out not knowing of your site. Your site needs big publicity.
Good work Rod
Paul
Rod said,
October 20, 2010 @ 8:14 am
Paul,
many thanks indeed for the kind and encouraging words and welcome to the site.
There’s quite a lot on the site and some marvellous stuff dotted all over the place - that’s something that will only increase as well as things are added, quite literally, daily.
Thanks again Paul and I hope to keep you interested
All the best
Rod
Nick said,
January 5, 2011 @ 11:37 pm
Rod,
How do I upload images here?
I have an up to date topographical map of the Toote hill area which you may find interesting? It’s not in the public domain, but I wont tell if you dont.
Nick
Rod said,
January 6, 2011 @ 9:19 am
Hi Nick,
you can’t upload images I’m afraid as I have to add them to my server, I can add any images for you if you email them to me - just click on my name in this comment for details.
The only issue is copyright really - if that applies in this case
Thanks and regards
Rod
Novice Historian said,
March 10, 2011 @ 11:22 am
Just a note regarding the lay of the land………… I recently did a visit to Toohill gardens. The land really falls away down there and the new houses behind The Trawl are about 8-10feet (more in places) higher than the toohill garden houses (especailly those at the end of the street)
Kind regards
Rod said,
March 10, 2011 @ 11:44 am
NH,
absolutely !
You do have to explore the area just to rise how much it rises and falls, makes you wonder what it musy have been like before it was ‘quarried’
Likewise looking at Cun Hu from Town’s Holt - very imposing
Best
Rod
Barbara said,
May 16, 2011 @ 5:38 pm
Hi, new to this site today after googling for something totally different. Couldn’t resist taking a peep, and have been here for hours, better than any mystery film on tv. Am totally captivated and want to learn so much more.
Thank you
Barbara
Rod said,
May 16, 2011 @ 6:14 pm
Hi Barbara,
thanks for the kind words and a warm welcome to the site, there’s plenty of other stuff here as well so hopefully you’ll come across something else as well
Regards
Rod
minnie said,
June 21, 2011 @ 7:13 pm
I only managed to get round to reading this this morning whilst looking out something else.
Re Chapel Field House my great great grandfather (or might be 3 greats?) was employed on the farm that is where St Margarets nursing home is now. The only reason I mention this is that he was a staunch Methodist ie a ‘chapel’ man and I just wondered how close his place of worship was in relation to where he worked and lived?
Rod said,
June 21, 2011 @ 7:17 pm
Minnie,
that’s very interesting, once again !
Interestingly the cottages that were once on the site of St Margaret’s are where my first peices of carved stone came from !!
Cheers
Rod
Rich said,
June 24, 2011 @ 3:07 pm
Firstly Hello to everyone and thanks Rod for a great site that has just taken up many hours of my day, oh well it looked like raining anyway.
As I sit here in my living room, possibly, half way up the bank of Toothill (the houses on Yarborough Road look alot higher than mine on Fletcher Road) you have all made me realise just how much the land rises and falls in this area.
Another thought I had was how much the Grimsby Golf Club’s landscape was changed when it was built in the early 1920’s, having been a member there, there really are some very big ‘hills’ on there, notably the 1st green/2nd tee/16th tee mound, the 4th green/5th tee/6th tee/7th green mound with steep ravine on one side that leads down to the freshney and the very high hill that houses the 13th green/14th tee.
Regards
Rich
Rod said,
June 24, 2011 @ 3:12 pm
Rich,
many thanks for the kind words and welcome to the site.
When you were on that golf course I believe you were treading in the footsteps of royalty !!
Cun Hu Hill accompanies this article
Kind regards,
Rod
Ian H said,
November 29, 2011 @ 7:21 pm
Rod, hope you and Miles are well.
My folks still love at the bottom of Curry Road on Yarrow Road, large parts of that area including Curry Road, The Trawl, old rifle range etc were built on landfill. You must remember digging bottles on toothill as a kid, I’d spend hours down there! there were some archaeological finds too when they built the golf course, i remember my gt grandpop telling me, that land is sand and could well have been quarried, there are also some pretty good hills on the gollie too (didn’t you ever come sledging with us!?)
I haven’t read all the threads bit intend to, it’s very interesting, the map though I reckon is a bit inaccurate. I appreciate it’s an attempt to show the layout in pre roman times before the outmarsh etc was drained. I know exactly where the source of the freshney is and I’ve walked it several times, to my knowledge the freshney was only altered below Wybers (golf course?), between church meadows and the willows and into town for the docks and haven. The source is at the foot of welbeck hill near Irby, the hill above it is/was a saxon cemetry that I dug as a junior school boy with Mr Bashforth (?) at Macaulay St school. Link to the map centred on the source of the freshney (copse ctr) and above around 11pm is a funny enclosure probably something to do with the burials that were directly across the road from the spring, Mr Bashforth (?) found lots of stuff here including gold broaches etc. http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=53.518727,-0.16192&hl=en&num=1&t=h&vpsrc=0&z=15 This is a link to some of the archeaological records http://archaeologydataservice.ac.uk/archsearch/browser.jsf
When the garage was there there was always a dip in the ground behind Ashley Becketts house etc on Cherry Tree Ave and the back of the garage, never knew what it was but played in there as a kid too. Didn’t Rayners used to own the big house on the corner? I remember Sally Ann Rayner can’t think why!!
Take care and keep up the good work, fascinating!
H
Rod said,
November 30, 2011 @ 7:51 am
Ian,
great to hear from you and welcome to the site.
I do indeed remember digging old bottles up from there, in fact I’ve still got some of them.
Toote Hill was actually quarried for sand and much of it went into building around Grimsby.
There are a lot of comments on this one but they’re well worth a read - I think you’ll enjoy them.
Kind regards
Rod
Richard Oliver said,
February 8, 2012 @ 7:33 pm
This is an interesting and entertaining site, which a Lincs friend put me onto! Looking through it has kept me agreeably distracted when I ought t be getting on with other things! Thank you.
I’m putting this onto the Toot(e) Hill thread, but the general principle applies to all the other ‘hill threads’ on this site:
I passed Toot Hill on the bus to and from school every day in 1963-5. Towards the end of that time I got hold of Bob Lincoln’s The Rise of Grimsby and was more than a little surprised to read about these hills, and their stated former size. I found out much later that Bob got his info from the Rev Dr George Oliver, who seems to have been more enthusiastic than entirely accurate! If some of these these hills really had been of the order 100 feet vertical height bottom to top in the early 19th century you’d expect the Ordnance Survey to have noticed they fact when they were doing their first survey c.1820!
Taking Toot Hill: the 1886 OS 6-inch map (posted 21 March 2010) shows a level of 20 feet above mean sea level on the road to the west, and 46 on top on Toot Hill. This is nothing like Dr Oliver’s 100 feet, but, before the area was built-up, would still have given a terrific view right across to the Humber and the Yorkshire coast, and possibly much of the way to Cleethorpes in one direction and away beyond Immingham in the other. So it could be both a good place for a pre-Roman burial mound and for a Roman or other signal station or look-out point. (If you doubt what a small hill can do for a view in flattish country, go to Kilnsea, above Spurn, and stand by the cliff on the edge of the caravan site, amidst the ruins of Godwin Battery!)
I think that we can reconcile Dr Oliver’s idea of these Grimsby versions of Silbury Hill with the fact that in Oliver’s time these hills weren’t actually that high if we accept that (1) these are in origin natural low hills of glacial debris (though some may have been used for burial mounds, lookout posts, ‘druidic sites’, etc) with markedly sloping sides, but flattening out at the top, and (2) that Dr O assumed for whatever reason that the steep slope had continued upwards at a uniform gradient, which if it ever had done might well have reached about 100 feet vertically at Toot Hill. Note: glaciers don’t produce conical hills in areas like Grimsby!
‘Two sides of the same coin’: (1) if Toot Hill and some of the others, e.g. Holm(e) Hill, really were once 100 or more feet in vertical height, who built it, why, and where did the get all the material from? (2) When exactly was it all removed, and where did it go to?! Grimsby remained practically unchanged in size till after 1800 and the coming of the Ordnance Survey. (See above!) The OS didn’t record a giant Toot Hill or Holme Hill!
Thanks once again.
Richard Oliver
Exeter
[and NO relation of Dr George Oliver!!!]
Rod said,
February 8, 2012 @ 7:48 pm
Richard,
- he wrotes as though he were there 
good old Bob
I imagine, whatever the size of the hills, they were mostly natural, some enhanced perhaps the smaller ones almost entirely natural. Certainly archaeological evidence on what’s left suggests that Richard.
I know there’s a lot of comments but there are actually explanations where some of the hills actually ‘went’ as it were, most robbed out for sand and building materials etc.
Best
Rod