Comments on: The Archbishop of Canterbury and Grimsby ~ Some History http://www.rodcollins.com/wordpress/the-archbishop-of-canterbury-and-grimsby-some-history A Site About Everything and Nothing Tue, 22 May 2012 00:38:05 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=1.5.2 Comment on The Archbishop of Canterbury and Grimsby ~ Some History by: Rod http://www.rodcollins.com/wordpress/the-archbishop-of-canterbury-and-grimsby-some-history#comment-12144 Wed, 17 Mar 2010 08:51:16 +0000 http://www.rodcollins.com/wordpress/the-archbishop-of-canterbury-and-grimsby-some-history#comment-12144 Peter, what you say about the content of the Bible being different to what many might imagine is absolutely spot on in my case. I like many people thought I knew roughly what was in the Bible, after all we've all heard the stories and don't need to read it . . . My avenues of historic interest began to mingle with religious history and I became fascinated. I always imagined, in my crushing ignorance, that the bible was merely stories about characters that were presumably fictional but that many people believed in - I was completely unprepared for the fact that huge portions of the bible are based on real historic evidence and that the people in it existed and most of the events actually happened albeit perhaps slightly different to the edited versions. I felt such a fool, my total ignorance was embarrassing. It was only tempered slightly when I began to realise that it was shared by so many others as well - including a lay preacher I had a fabulous discussion with - who, as it turned out, was also massively ignorant on the subject ! It's a fabulous subject to look into and of course just down the road we have our own big connection . . . We all know what happened to Lazarus in Caistor don't we ? Absoutely fascinating Peter Best wishes Rod Peter,
what you say about the content of the Bible being different to what many might imagine is absolutely spot on in my case.
I like many people thought I knew roughly what was in the Bible, after all we’ve all heard the stories and don’t need to read it . . .
My avenues of historic interest began to mingle with religious history and I became fascinated.
I always imagined, in my crushing ignorance, that the bible was merely stories about characters that were presumably fictional but that many people believed in - I was completely unprepared for the fact that huge portions of the bible are based on real historic evidence and that the people in it existed and most of the events actually happened albeit perhaps slightly different to the edited versions.

I felt such a fool, my total ignorance was embarrassing. It was only tempered slightly when I began to realise that it was shared by so many others as well - including a lay preacher I had a fabulous discussion with - who, as it turned out, was also massively ignorant on the subject !

It’s a fabulous subject to look into and of course just down the road we have our own big connection . . .

We all know what happened to Lazarus in Caistor don’t we ?

Absoutely fascinating Peter
Best wishes
Rod

]]> Comment on The Archbishop of Canterbury and Grimsby ~ Some History by: Peter Mullins http://www.rodcollins.com/wordpress/the-archbishop-of-canterbury-and-grimsby-some-history#comment-12143 Wed, 17 Mar 2010 08:17:39 +0000 http://www.rodcollins.com/wordpress/the-archbishop-of-canterbury-and-grimsby-some-history#comment-12143 Bible. I've opened my old 'Archaeological Companion to the Bible' at random (thanks, Rod for the tip on how to get round Chris) and been struck this time again by the Lachish letters - scarps of correspondance from an isolated outpost about to over run by the Babylonians, letters sent from exactly the same place and at the same time that the Bible describes. But actually I agree more with Chris than he might think. I often point out that the span of time over which the Bible was written was longer than the span of time over which the whole of English literature has been written, so everyone other than really fundamentalist Christains would expect to find it contains material of very different sorts and quality (from erotic love poems and the justification for genocide to reliable history and the most demanding of moral imperatives). Hypocrisy. This comes in degrees. There is the level built into almost all human decision making where we are not absolutely consistent and where we are often unaware of the complicated variety of things which really influence us. There is the level built into all Christian living where we know we are not as good as we preach and as we aspire to be, which is why there is a formal Confession as part of most Christian services. And there is the culpable flagrant destructive level (of which I would have thought some Anglicans are quite as likely to be guilty as some Catholics) about which Jesus of Nazareth is reported as having said some of his sternest things. Bible. I’ve opened my old ‘Archaeological Companion to the Bible’ at random (thanks, Rod for the tip on how to get round Chris) and been struck this time again by the Lachish letters - scarps of correspondance from an isolated outpost about to over run by the Babylonians, letters sent from exactly the same place and at the same time that the Bible describes. But actually I agree more with Chris than he might think. I often point out that the span of time over which the Bible was written was longer than the span of time over which the whole of English literature has been written, so everyone other than really fundamentalist Christains would expect to find it contains material of very different sorts and quality (from erotic love poems and the justification for genocide to reliable history and the most demanding of moral imperatives).

Hypocrisy. This comes in degrees. There is the level built into almost all human decision making where we are not absolutely consistent and where we are often unaware of the complicated variety of things which really influence us. There is the level built into all Christian living where we know we are not as good as we preach and as we aspire to be, which is why there is a formal Confession as part of most Christian services. And there is the culpable flagrant destructive level (of which I would have thought some Anglicans are quite as likely to be guilty as some Catholics) about which Jesus of Nazareth is reported as having said some of his sternest things.

]]> Comment on The Archbishop of Canterbury and Grimsby ~ Some History by: chris keyworth http://www.rodcollins.com/wordpress/the-archbishop-of-canterbury-and-grimsby-some-history#comment-12136 Tue, 16 Mar 2010 21:24:41 +0000 http://www.rodcollins.com/wordpress/the-archbishop-of-canterbury-and-grimsby-some-history#comment-12136 I am all for churches just not the church i am a true non beleiver, dont get me wrong i think that the bible is a great and ancient story book but as to the truth of it i dont go along with that, there is a distinct lack of fact based evidence in the new testiment, the old testement however have some storys that are wrooted in documented contempary accounts ie in hyrogliphics, i think every body needs to believe in somthing as we are a weak race who cant except that we just evolved over time like everything around us, it serves the human mind to believe in a higher being greater than our selves it makes people feel safe, just not me i would personaly class it as a weakness in my self to be a believer it would hinder my decision making and place me in mortal danger. regards chris.... I am all for churches just not the church i am a true non beleiver, dont get me wrong i think that the bible is a great and ancient story book but as to the truth of it i dont go along with that, there is a distinct lack of fact based evidence in the new testiment, the old testement however have some storys that are wrooted in documented contempary accounts ie in hyrogliphics, i think every body needs to believe in somthing as we are a weak race who cant except that we just evolved over time like everything around us, it serves the human mind to believe in a higher being greater than our selves it makes people feel safe, just not me i would personaly class it as a weakness in my self to be a believer it would hinder my decision making and place me in mortal danger.

regards
chris….

]]> Comment on The Archbishop of Canterbury and Grimsby ~ Some History by: Rod http://www.rodcollins.com/wordpress/the-archbishop-of-canterbury-and-grimsby-some-history#comment-12132 Tue, 16 Mar 2010 19:26:25 +0000 http://www.rodcollins.com/wordpress/the-archbishop-of-canterbury-and-grimsby-some-history#comment-12132 Peter, Chris is a pussycat really - just give him a rolled up copy of an archaeological report and he'll be putty in your hands :lol: The Bishop of Grantham sounds like a great man - love that quote - I think more of that wouldn't do anybody concerned any harm. Re hypocrisy: I wonder whether there's ever any annoyance for those in the Church of England when they get tarred with the same brush as the Church of Rome - I'm no expert but an English Vicar and a Roman Catholic Priest seem a long way apart in my imagination at least. I know much of what I thought of as hypocrisy within the church turned out to be RC - as you'll note I'm that most dangerous of people - somebody who is just starting to learn about something :) Best wishes Rod Peter,
Chris is a pussycat really - just give him a rolled up copy of an archaeological report and he’ll be putty in your hands :lol:

The Bishop of Grantham sounds like a great man - love that quote - I think more of that wouldn’t do anybody concerned any harm.

Re hypocrisy: I wonder whether there’s ever any annoyance for those in the Church of England when they get tarred with the same brush as the Church of Rome - I’m no expert but an English Vicar and a Roman Catholic Priest seem a long way apart in my imagination at least.
I know much of what I thought of as hypocrisy within the church turned out to be RC - as you’ll note I’m that most dangerous of people - somebody who is just starting to learn about something :)

Best wishes
Rod

]]> Comment on The Archbishop of Canterbury and Grimsby ~ Some History by: Peter Mullins http://www.rodcollins.com/wordpress/the-archbishop-of-canterbury-and-grimsby-some-history#comment-12131 Tue, 16 Mar 2010 18:49:31 +0000 http://www.rodcollins.com/wordpress/the-archbishop-of-canterbury-and-grimsby-some-history#comment-12131 Goodness. I'd thought the original comment was about a particular sermon, but it looks as if I've innocently walked into hostile territory myself, and with a promise of a good kicking I'm unlikely to come out on top. As to hypocricy, what can I say? A previous Bishop of Grantham used to say 'It is not true that the church is full of hypocrites; there is room for plenty more of us'. And, having quoted the Ten Commandmenst in full, you might enjoy a Victorian accustaion of hypocricy thus: Thou shalt have one God only; who Would be at the expense of two? No graven images may be Worshipp'd, except the currency: Swear not at all; for, for thy curse Thine enemy is none the worse: At church on Sunday to attend Will serve to keep the world thy friend: Honour thy parents; that is, all From whom advancement may befall: Thou shalt not kill; but need'st not strive Officiously to keep alive: Do not adultery commit; Advantage rarely comes of it: Thou shalt not steal; an empty feat, When it's so lucrative to cheat: Bear not false witness; let the lie Have time on its own wings to fly: Thou shalt not covet; but tradition Approves all forms of competition. Goodness. I’d thought the original comment was about a particular sermon, but it looks as if I’ve innocently walked into hostile territory myself, and with a promise of a good kicking I’m unlikely to come out on top.

As to hypocricy, what can I say? A previous Bishop of Grantham used to say ‘It is not true that the church is full of hypocrites; there is room for plenty more of us’.

And, having quoted the Ten Commandmenst in full, you might enjoy a Victorian accustaion of hypocricy thus:

Thou shalt have one God only; who
Would be at the expense of two?
No graven images may be
Worshipp’d, except the currency:
Swear not at all; for, for thy curse
Thine enemy is none the worse:
At church on Sunday to attend
Will serve to keep the world thy friend:
Honour thy parents; that is, all
From whom advancement may befall:
Thou shalt not kill; but need’st not strive
Officiously to keep alive:
Do not adultery commit;
Advantage rarely comes of it:
Thou shalt not steal; an empty feat,
When it’s so lucrative to cheat:
Bear not false witness; let the lie
Have time on its own wings to fly:
Thou shalt not covet; but tradition
Approves all forms of competition.

]]> Comment on The Archbishop of Canterbury and Grimsby ~ Some History by: Rod http://www.rodcollins.com/wordpress/the-archbishop-of-canterbury-and-grimsby-some-history#comment-12128 Tue, 16 Mar 2010 17:14:34 +0000 http://www.rodcollins.com/wordpress/the-archbishop-of-canterbury-and-grimsby-some-history#comment-12128 Chris, I read a very interesting book a while ago and in it the suggestion was that originally the 'thou shall not kill' line did in fact mean 'thou shall not kill fellow Jews' There's plenty of talk in the bible of slaughtering all your enemies and the like. I'm no biblical scholar, so forgive any errors everybody - in fact don't forgive them pick me up on them people, I also think Jesus himself said 'I do not come to bring peace but the sword' or something very similar. I wonder who much of religion is based solely on our experience of it and our lives. I personally struggle to understand many aspects of the Roman Catholic style religion for example but is that because my life has been primarily free from any religion at all ? I would liken it much to your situation as a former front line soldier Chris who has been involved in hostile action. People may try and understand it, think they can imagine what it feels like to lose friends and comrades, both then and still today in your case Chris, but only those immersed in it for real can ever really know and understand I believe. I wonder whether religion also requires immersion for true understanding and faith ? All the best Rod PS: I know they say never discuss religion but I really hope we can here. This is a civilized site so I think we can without insulting or upsetting anybody - it's a very interesting subject and I would encourage debate on it as and when it comes up - we all gain from an exchange of ideas and opinions Chris,
I read a very interesting book a while ago and in it the suggestion was that originally the
‘thou shall not kill’ line did in fact mean ‘thou shall not kill fellow Jews’

There’s plenty of talk in the bible of slaughtering all your enemies and the like.
I’m no biblical scholar, so forgive any errors everybody - in fact don’t forgive them pick me up on them people, I also think Jesus himself said ‘I do not come to bring peace but the sword’ or something very similar.

I wonder who much of religion is based solely on our experience of it and our lives.
I personally struggle to understand many aspects of the Roman Catholic style religion for example but is that because my life has been primarily free from any religion at all ?

I would liken it much to your situation as a former front line soldier Chris who has been involved in hostile action.
People may try and understand it, think they can imagine what it feels like to lose friends and comrades, both then and still today in your case Chris, but only those immersed in it for real can ever really know and understand I believe.

I wonder whether religion also requires immersion for true understanding and faith ?
All the best
Rod

PS: I know they say never discuss religion but I really hope we can here. This is a civilized site so I think we can without insulting or upsetting anybody - it’s a very interesting subject and I would encourage debate on it as and when it comes up - we all gain from an exchange of ideas and opinions

]]> Comment on The Archbishop of Canterbury and Grimsby ~ Some History by: chris keyworth http://www.rodcollins.com/wordpress/the-archbishop-of-canterbury-and-grimsby-some-history#comment-12126 Tue, 16 Mar 2010 14:36:21 +0000 http://www.rodcollins.com/wordpress/the-archbishop-of-canterbury-and-grimsby-some-history#comment-12126 The Ten Commandments (Exodus 20:2-17 NKJV) 1 “I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. You shall have no other gods before Me. 2 “You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My Commandments. 3 “You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain, for the Lord will not hold him guiltless who takes His name in vain. 4 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it. 5 “Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long upon the land which the Lord your God is giving you. 6 “You shall not murder. 7 “You shall not commit adultery. 8 “You shall not steal. 9 “You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor. 10 “You shall not covet your neighbor's house; you shall not covet your neighbor's wife, nor his male servant, nor his female servant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor's.” How would the Church Justify Comandment No6 to a Serving Soldier who has just shot and killed a hostile, When the said Soldier dies and reaches the pearly gates what will he get turned away for, murdering his fellow man, i just find the church very hypocritical on the subject they need to make things clearer they are either for or against the war, i think personaly they are against it and thus should stay out of thearter of war there roll would be better served with the familys left at home. Regards Chris... donkeys kick like hell stay clear people... The Ten Commandments (Exodus 20:2-17 NKJV)

1 “I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. You shall have no other gods before Me.

2 “You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My Commandments.

3 “You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain, for the Lord will not hold him guiltless who takes His name in vain.

4 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.

5 “Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long upon the land which the Lord your God is giving you.

6 “You shall not murder.

7 “You shall not commit adultery.

8 “You shall not steal.

9 “You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.

10 “You shall not covet your neighbor’s house; you shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, nor his male servant, nor his female servant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor’s.”

How would the Church Justify Comandment No6 to a Serving Soldier who has just shot and killed a hostile, When the said Soldier dies and reaches the pearly gates what will he get turned away for, murdering his fellow man, i just find the church very hypocritical on the subject they need to make things clearer they are either for or against the war, i think personaly they are against it and thus should stay out of thearter of war there roll would be better served with the familys left at home.

Regards
Chris…
donkeys kick like hell stay clear people…

]]> Comment on The Archbishop of Canterbury and Grimsby ~ Some History by: Rod http://www.rodcollins.com/wordpress/the-archbishop-of-canterbury-and-grimsby-some-history#comment-12124 Tue, 16 Mar 2010 09:32:51 +0000 http://www.rodcollins.com/wordpress/the-archbishop-of-canterbury-and-grimsby-some-history#comment-12124 Peter, it's a great debate and I really do enjoy this sort of discussion. The point I alluded to at the time and subsequently was one of being wrong on many levels therefore even if you agree on one thing there were still other things he got wrong. I fully understand there are different opinions on the war and I would agree that this was a real opportunity to address everybody - not just those there and directly affected. However should he have done so ? My argument would be that he is very important and high profile - he could have got this across on another day in another place and it would have got reported. Again it goes back to so many things being amiss with it - it really did leave me with the feeling that he knew he had a platform and a captive audience the like of which he'd seldom get and he wanted to make the most of it. There were plenty of people there who had very different opinions of the war but it wasn't the day for that in my opinion. Even if everything he said was misconstrued he did leave a lot of people with a bad impression and that in itself has to be a failure on the part of somebody who should be a supreme communicator. I'm sure he didn't intend to alienate himself from a lot of servicemen, ex servicemen and their widows but it seems he did, surely that could and should have been avoided. I'm very pleased you did decide to post Peter as it's opened up the issue and also got me to read what he said fully. Much appreciated Rod Peter,
it’s a great debate and I really do enjoy this sort of discussion.
The point I alluded to at the time and subsequently was one of being wrong on many levels therefore even if you agree on one thing there were still other things he got wrong.

I fully understand there are different opinions on the war and I would agree that this was a real opportunity to address everybody - not just those there and directly affected. However should he have done so ?
My argument would be that he is very important and high profile - he could have got this across on another day in another place and it would have got reported.

Again it goes back to so many things being amiss with it - it really did leave me with the feeling that he knew he had a platform and a captive audience the like of which he’d seldom get and he wanted to make the most of it.
There were plenty of people there who had very different opinions of the war but it wasn’t the day for that in my opinion.
Even if everything he said was misconstrued he did leave a lot of people with a bad impression and that in itself has to be a failure on the part of somebody who should be a supreme communicator.
I’m sure he didn’t intend to alienate himself from a lot of servicemen, ex servicemen and their widows but it seems he did, surely that could and should have been avoided.

I’m very pleased you did decide to post Peter as it’s opened up the issue and also got me to read what he said fully.
Much appreciated
Rod

]]> Comment on The Archbishop of Canterbury and Grimsby ~ Some History by: Peter Mullins http://www.rodcollins.com/wordpress/the-archbishop-of-canterbury-and-grimsby-some-history#comment-12123 Tue, 16 Mar 2010 08:56:03 +0000 http://www.rodcollins.com/wordpress/the-archbishop-of-canterbury-and-grimsby-some-history#comment-12123 Yes, I do understand your point of view fully. I'm sure the stark point of diagreement is exactly the one on which you put your finger - the role and purpose of his involvement in this sort of service. You express clearly one view which many share, while others would have felt very let down if he hadn't spoken to the much wider audience on that day. It isn't a new conflict and I guess it will be repeated to a greater or lesser extent every single time there is such a service: Archbishop Runcie was clear that the equivalent Falklands' service should include prayers for all those who had suffered because the war took place, while Prime Minister Thatcher was very strong in her contrasting view that the service itself was for celebration only and that he should not have done that. I suppose the only reason I posted was that the existence of a sincere disagreement in the country as a whole about an Archbishop's role at such services doesn't necessarily make him into a t*t or a t**t. Yes, I do understand your point of view fully. I’m sure the stark point of diagreement is exactly the one on which you put your finger - the role and purpose of his involvement in this sort of service. You express clearly one view which many share, while others would have felt very let down if he hadn’t spoken to the much wider audience on that day. It isn’t a new conflict and I guess it will be repeated to a greater or lesser extent every single time there is such a service: Archbishop Runcie was clear that the equivalent Falklands’ service should include prayers for all those who had suffered because the war took place, while Prime Minister Thatcher was very strong in her contrasting view that the service itself was for celebration only and that he should not have done that. I suppose the only reason I posted was that the existence of a sincere disagreement in the country as a whole about an Archbishop’s role at such services doesn’t necessarily make him into a t*t or a t**t.

]]> Comment on The Archbishop of Canterbury and Grimsby ~ Some History by: Rod http://www.rodcollins.com/wordpress/the-archbishop-of-canterbury-and-grimsby-some-history#comment-12122 Tue, 16 Mar 2010 08:27:49 +0000 http://www.rodcollins.com/wordpress/the-archbishop-of-canterbury-and-grimsby-some-history#comment-12122 Hi Peter, thanks for providing a bigger picture - it's always more than useful and the dangers of working from 'press reports' and their selective quoting is clear. I wouldn't for one minute question the Archbishop in terms of being anti the military or unsupportive etc - nor would I be abusive. It's easy to be critical when anybody makes a speech or gives a sermon, if they say something we disagree with we naturally think we're right and therefore 'they' must be wrong - obviously the reverse could be true so most of the controversies are simply a matter of opinion. This whole thing went badly wrong in my opinion because it felt so ill advised on so many levels. I felt his presence that day was all about ceremony. In order to show as much respect as possible all the big guns were out - the most important people and high ranking officials, the top religious venue and our top religious man to be the MC - I just didn't think it was a day for opinion - other days would do for that. Come what may a lot of people who attended felt let down, some very badly so, I think he let himself down as well. I honestly believe he used it as a platform for his opinion when really he should have been there to conduct the religious ceremonies with his attendance bringing real gravitas to the occasion. I don't say I'm right Peter only that after seeing it that's the way it left me feeling and I believe he knew what he was doing when he did it - it was considered and very carefully thought out - had to be Best wishes Rod Hi Peter,
thanks for providing a bigger picture - it’s always more than useful and the dangers of working from ‘press reports’ and their selective quoting is clear.
I wouldn’t for one minute question the Archbishop in terms of being anti the military or unsupportive etc - nor would I be abusive.

It’s easy to be critical when anybody makes a speech or gives a sermon, if they say something we disagree with we naturally think we’re right and therefore ‘they’ must be wrong - obviously the reverse could be true so most of the controversies are simply a matter of opinion.

This whole thing went badly wrong in my opinion because it felt so ill advised on so many levels.
I felt his presence that day was all about ceremony. In order to show as much respect as possible all the big guns were out - the most important people and high ranking officials, the top religious venue and our top religious man to be the MC - I just didn’t think it was a day for opinion - other days would do for that.

Come what may a lot of people who attended felt let down, some very badly so, I think he let himself down as well.
I honestly believe he used it as a platform for his opinion when really he should have been there to conduct the religious ceremonies with his attendance bringing real gravitas to the occasion.

I don’t say I’m right Peter only that after seeing it that’s the way it left me feeling and I believe he knew what he was doing when he did it - it was considered and very carefully thought out - had to be
Best wishes
Rod

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