St Mary’s Church Grimsby ~ A Look at the Long Gone Church
St Mary’s Church Grimsby in Lincolnshire
Although long since demolished I thought it would be useful to look at the history of the church and collate as much information about it as possible.
There is plenty of information of Grimsby’s main church, St James, but I have to say initial research into into Mary’s which coexisted in the same area is proving less fruitful - hopefully over time and with help from contributors we can remedy this.
The town used to be dominated by two large churches, St James which is still extant, though much rebuilt, and St Mary’s which disappeared in the 17th century. I fear that much of what follows may look a little sketchy. I’ve tried to accumulate anything and everything pertaining to the building and its history so hopefully when viewed as an overall it will provide as good a picture as possible.
Here is what I’ve been able to dig up from a variety of sources so far:
St Mary’s church began to fall into a state of disrepair and was nearing the end of usefulness in the 16th century. The town’s diminishing fortunes meant the luxury of two large churches was something Grimsby could ill afford.
In 1553 a member of the influential Ayscough, Sir Francis Ayscoughe, family approached Sir William Cecil with a proposition to demolish the church and divide the proceeds between them. Cecil refused the suggestion but it only delayed things for another 30 years.
The site of St James appeared better placed to combine the two parishes and this happened when the Heneages, who were patrons of St James after the dissolution of Wellow Abbey, purchased the advowson of St Mary’s thus being able to unite the two with the permission of the Arch Bishop of Canterbury.
Once the lead had been stripped the building really fell into terrible disrepair and by the mid 17th century it was gone (I believe)
Some of the stone was used at St James whilst much was also used locally for domestic purposes, cottages, walls and the like.
This brings up a local superstition that it would bring only bad luck on people if they used materials from a holy building for lay purposes, indeed I believe period writer Abraham De La Pryme suggests the downturn in the towns fortune could be attributed to it - as opposed to the silting up of the Humber that is !
Well known Grimsby writer, Mayor and MP, Gervase Holles even attributes ill luck falling on his family
as a result of buying stone from the borough that was once part of St Mary’s church as it had done to the Mussendine family and the Hatcliffs.
All of this leads me to wonder what the church looks looked like. There are suggestions that it was a more impressive building than St James at the time but are there any illustrations of it still surviving ?
I’ve trawled all over the place and have been unable to unearth an engraving, painting or artists sketch - hopefully one exists somewhere and we’d appreciated any pointers toward it.
I’ve had a stab at putting together a map of the area I believe the church to have been situated, with a little help from old texts, an illustration screen capped from Google and a bit of photoshop the map to the left is, I believe, where St Mary’s church originally stood.
Bordered by the streets, east St Mary’s Gate, west St Mary’s Gate and South St Mary’s Gate.
I hope if you’ve read this you’ve found it of some interest and if you know anything yourself or would just like to comment please do.
We are especially keen to find out as much about the whole history of the church and what went on there - there must be more information out there and we’d be hugely indebted to anybody who could furnish us with anything at all. Please do leave a comment or should you prefer then you could email us any information or hopefully a picture or illustration of any kind.
[edit 11.12.09]
We’ve very kindly been sent an old map of Grimsby which shows the site clearly, we’re hugely indebted.
You’ll see the spot labelled (roughly center of map 1.5 inches from the top)
Old Map of Grimsby 1660
Grimsby Town Centre Circa 1660
[Edit; information courtesy of Steve Fuller, again we are hugely grateful]
The church and churchyard covered 2 acres a few yards down the road stood Clayton Hall.
The accounts for St Mary’s Church for 1411-12 show that the church owned 12 houses in the town. These were timber framed with mud and stud walls under either thatch or a tiled roof. One had a barrel on the roof which was used as a smoke vent.
Account sof the curse on the Hatcliffe family who built their manor house to the south of the site mentions refers to the church as
Great Grimsby’s long-lost Mariners Church, St Mary’s. ! First reference to Mariners Church I’ve come across
Grimsby heretofore hath been fortifyed with two block-houses [though now not so much as ye ruines remayne to testify, that they were] and beautifyed with two churches, [of which ye church of St. Mary, a handsome piece, & a good sea marke, was sacrilegiously pulled downe, & quite demolisht within ye memory of some late living; ye other of St. James yet stands ill-repayred, being a church large & spacious, but nothing beautifyed] an Abbey, a Nunnery, two Frieryes, a Chauntrey, & a house of Hospitaliers of St. John’s of Jerusalem
The Canons of Wellow built the parish church of St. James about the year 1200, not far from the old church of St. Mary, which was mentioned in the Domesday Book, and which is reputed to have been much finer architecturally than St. James, with a tower rivalling Boston Stump.
St Mary’s was roofed in lead there were at least three bells and a clock broken by the bell ringers
There was a tenement on the south side of St. Mary’s Gate called the Church House, where the spits, cocks, and other utensils were deposited and kept in readiness for use at the Whitsuntide festival. A green harbour was erected in the church-yard of St. Mary’s, called Robin Hood’s, where maidens fathered contributions and churchwardens for the benefit of the poor .
[edit 18.12.09] Map sent in by Neville Sisson. 1840 Enclosure Act map by Rex Russell.
Note street names around the churchyard plot, also note that the plot is divided into two sections with nothing yet built on the site
1840 Map of Grimsby Town Centre
All the best
Rod
chris keyworth said,
December 14, 2009 @ 6:20 pm
I ave an exact grid for st marys TA2682 0928
Site of St Marys church Great Grimsby probably 12th century, church amalgamated with St James 1586, site now occupied by modern development. (Gillet 1955, 27; Gillet 1970, 81-2).
Rod said,
December 14, 2009 @ 6:39 pm
Chris,
Excellent - many thanks !
Cheers
Rod
chris keyworth said,
December 15, 2009 @ 11:34 pm
SAINT MARY’S CHURCH.
This edifice was an Anglo-Saxon structure; but the period of its erection is uncertain. It is mentioned in Domesday, and is consequently more ancient than the time of that survey. It was situated in the centre of the town, on a site which is still inclosed, and retains the name of ” the Old Church Yard.” The streets, by which it is surrounded, are called East, West, and South St. Mary’s Gate.— Gervase Holles informs us, that it was a fine gothic structure, of very large dimensions, ornamented with ” cathedral-like” decorations, and possessing a tower at the west end, so lofty as to be used by mariners for a beacon, to direct them safely into the mouth of the Old Haven. The benefice was an ecclesiastical rectory; but after the dissolution of the monasteries, and the depopulation of the town, it was consolidated, at the recommendation of Archbishop Whitgift, with the living of St. James, as appears from the deed of consolidation, now lying before me; and also from the following entry, extracted from a terrier which was exhibited in the Bishop’s Court on the 7th of August, 1634. “In the year 1585,* Sir George Heneage, patron of the vicarage of St. James,s, having purchased the perpetual advowson of the rectory of St. Mary’s, of John English, of Hull, the lawful patron thereof, had the said rectory, by the consent of the patron, bishop, and incumbent, united to the vicarage of St. James aforesaid. Since which time the incumbent has, or ought to have been, inducted into the rectory of St. Jamesrs only/’
From the above period, this magnificent edifice was entirely neglected, and suffered to fall into dilapidation and ruin ; and at length it was taken down, and the materials appropriated partly to repair the church of St. James, and partly to the reparation of private houses. At this time, scarcely a vestige remains which can be pointed out, as once forming a part of this venerable pile. We are indebted to the indefatigable exertions of that learned antiquary, Gervase Holles, for preserving some of its splendid decorations from total oblivion; which may be seen emblazoned in the Harleian Collection, British Museum. 6829.
Amongst these decorations were the following coats of arms, cut in freestone. “THE Arms Of England, impaled with the Lady Catherine Howard’s honorary achievement, (viz.) B. 3 fleurs de lize in pale d’or in 2 flanches ermine, as many roses —Lancastrian.
” The arms of the Archbishoprick of Canterbury, impaled with argent, a pale lozengy sablea.”
(The monumental antiquities of Great Grimsby, George Oliver 1825).
regards
chris
Amiguru said,
December 17, 2009 @ 8:44 pm
More pics on the way Rod
Regards,
le
N
Rod said,
January 5, 2010 @ 9:04 am
in the 1400s the towns Chamberlains were responsible for:
“keeping the borough’s banners bearing the arms of the king and the borough, along with the keys to the cellar under the common hall and the key to the common chest kept at St Mary’s church“
Amiguru said,
January 7, 2010 @ 2:34 pm
Rod,
Ever since I read Treasure Island at about age 10 I have had a fascination for maps. Not that I’m looking for gold in a material sense, its just that they embody so much information that words cannot easily convey. As the old adage goes ‘A picture paints a thousand words’. I have a new motto: ‘Maps matter!’
Hunting around today I came across this one of Grimsby in 1848 in ‘Jonfholl’s Photostream:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/75827322@N00/2318903254/sizes/l/
May I suggest you download the ‘original’ size. Its amazingly detailed and clear and will add to our arsenal
I left an appropriate appreciative comment and a recommentaion to visit this site.
Regards,
le
N
Rod said,
January 7, 2010 @ 3:10 pm
Downloaded and added to my maps folder (I’ve had to create a folder for them now
)
You just can’t have too many maps !
Best
Rod
Amiguru said,
January 14, 2010 @ 5:16 pm
Hi Rod,
OCR file and map sent
Regards,
le
N
Amiguru said,
March 23, 2010 @ 11:58 am
Rod,
Real people at last
Calendar of Patent Rolls 47 Henry III
Westminster 20 February 1263
“Presentation of Robert de Anna, chaplain to the church of St.
Mary, Grimmesby, void by the death of Master John de Parton,
sometime rector thereof; directed to the bishop of Lincoln.”
Regards,
Neville
Rod said,
March 23, 2010 @ 1:43 pm
Neville,
the Pipe Role Kid strikes again !
That dating range always makes me wobble a bit - love anything that lands in the 1200s - who knows what those names can lead to at that time.
Just fantastic - look how this thread has grown !
Best
Rod
Amiguru said,
March 28, 2010 @ 6:14 pm
Rod,
More flesh on the bones….
Calendar of Close Rolls 1297 tempus Edward I
Robert Champeneys, parson of the church of St. Mary, Grymmesby.
Lovely name, methinks of Norman origin.
Regards,
Neville
Rod said,
March 28, 2010 @ 7:21 pm
I love thta date range as well Neville and as you say what a worthy name - he must have done something interesting
Cheers
Rod
Amiguru said,
May 15, 2010 @ 9:21 pm
Rod,
J’ai trouvé l’église dans un livre français!
I’ve just been reading a part of a french book called ‘Le Catholicisme en Angleterre’ published in 1900 and look what it says:
“…….Celle de Eastbourne dans le Sussex est l’église de Stella Maris et celle de Great Grimsby dans le Lincolnshire l’église de Sainte Marie sur la mer……”.
Essentially, it is referring to Grimsby as St. Mary’s-by-the-Sea!
Hows about that then?
Neville
Rod said,
May 16, 2010 @ 9:09 am
Neville,
you should see me sat here smiling !
I’ve just been reading a part of a french book called ‘Le Catholicisme en Angleterre’ published in 1900 and look what it says:
If a single sentence could sum a man up . . .
It’s a fabulous find Neville - incredible really
Of course what is fascinating is that the church takes precedence over St James (as per suggestions at the time that it was more spectacular) and indeed over the town.
I stood at the spot of the Austin Friary yesterday and again wondered, do we appreciated the importance of this area in religious terms - just look at the buildings in such a small area - how many places do you see that ?
Best
Rod
Amiguru said,
May 27, 2010 @ 5:57 pm
Rod,
Oh Gee! I’m so shapely I’m thinking,
For your information, I’m stoned;
But I know that your dying to see me,
So its time that the owner was phoned.
No matter the age of the vicar
I’m sure that he’ll help if he can
You’ll need to go up his back passage
To find out if I’m where I am!
I sit in the place of wise Otus
Who’s last name you may say’s Cops
Its wicked to take away Edward
But that’s where this journey now stops!
Regards,
Neville
Rod said,
May 27, 2010 @ 6:07 pm
Oh no !
Not The Riddler again
This will be great but I know I’m going to get a headache.
Everybody get your thinking caps on to crack the riddle !
Clever stuff Neville !
Best
Rod
Rod said,
May 27, 2010 @ 6:23 pm
Neville,
Oh Gee = Ogee carving ?
But I know that your dying to see me = gravestone / memorial ?
wise Otus = owl ?
Its wicked to take away Edward = is that crytic crossword ? Wick ? I’m also looking at Its with no ‘ - I also wonder whether wicked is candle related as opposed to evil ?
This is very clever Neville
Best
Rod
Amiguru said,
May 27, 2010 @ 7:44 pm
Rod,
8 Spotter Points for a first try!
Ogee carving YES
gravestone / memorial no
Otus = owl YESish……..Generic name
Its wicked to take away Edward = is that crytic crossword YES
WickYES
You just need to do a bit of joining up.
Hint: Which thread are we on?
Scarily, you mentioned a location in a reply today!!!
Waxingly yours,
Neville
P.S. I’ve some stuff to e-mail….you’ll think all your birthdays have come at once, so I’d better send one at a time!
I think I had better give up this retirement lark and get back to work….the research is keeping me so busy
First one will be on its way tonight.
Rod said,
May 27, 2010 @ 8:20 pm
I sit in the place of wise Otus = Barn ? or perhaps ‘flyer’
Wicked cops minus edward = Scopwick ( very nice that Neville - got it without the extra clue as well)
John magee ?
Rod said,
May 27, 2010 @ 9:00 pm
George Oliver vicar of Scopwick ?
Amiguru said,
May 27, 2010 @ 9:38 pm
Rod,
Well done so far all resolved single-handed!
I would let you go on except that, without a copy of a certain scarce book to hand you would be unlikely to fully resolve it so here is a list of facts:
1.The Scops Owl’s scientific name is Otus scops.
2.You rightly got Scopwick.
3.At Scopwick there is a vicarage.
4.It has a back entrance.
5.Dr. George Oliver wrote about St. Mary’s, (among everything else in Grimsby), in his excellent book ‘Ye Byrde of Gryme’.
6.I have every respect for Dr. Oliver in his many guises and think he deserves a fuller biographical entry at a later date.
7.Significantly, he spent most of his long life in Lincolnshire, a good deal of it in Grimsby being born in 1782 and dying in 1867 he saw a lot of the ‘old town’ as it was.
He describes the St. Mary’s site, which he calls ‘The Rectorial Church’ in a dedicated chapter of seven pages! At the end of the chapter, significantly he adds a footnote:
“I believe there is no vestige of this old Church now in existence except a single decorated ogee stone which was taken up when the foundations were excavated for the erection of two small tenements, as nearly as I can recollect, about the year 1826, which may now be seen over the back entrance of the Vicarage house at Scopwick………”
The Reverend Doctor was later in life given the living of Scopwick and obviously took this souvenir with him. I thought that when your travels take you in that direction you might make prior
enquiries about the stone and if it is still anywhere in the grounds of the vicarage still, get some photos of it. This is a most significant object as far as this thread goes, I’m sure you will agree
You never know, it may match up with some of your stones
Think what one might conclude from that!
Kind regards,
Neville
Rod said,
May 28, 2010 @ 5:57 am
Neville,
if mouth-watering historical morsels were truffels you’d be a prize pig
You’ve heard of VAT, welll, from now on that kind of comment will be known as VAC or Value Added Comment.
Vicarage House at Scopwick, I’ve put it on my church list hard copy for a revisit. I’m down for a revisit and I still haven’t sorted the two posts in drafts from my first visit !
That really is a gem Neville and I’m really nodding my head at the clues - very nice indeed sir !
Best
Rod
Amiguru said,
September 29, 2010 @ 5:32 pm
2 January 1253
Presentation of Henry de Wengham to the church [St. Mary’s] of Grimsby, void by the death of Master Henry de Campeden, sometime the king’s physician.
Neville
Rod said,
September 29, 2010 @ 6:58 pm
Neville,
royal connectiosn - what a find !
Any chance of a translation for all our viewers as to what the above actualy means - presentation etc
Best
Rod
Amiguru said,
September 29, 2010 @ 8:19 pm
Viewers,
Does it need more explanation??? Oh well…
Henry de Campeden who was at one time the king’s physician later became the incumbent of St. Mary’s Church, Grimsby. Unfortunately, as is the wont of life, he became too ill to live and despite his former prestigious position, was unable to ‘physic’ himself out of the option of dying.
As a result, St. Mary’s was rudderless and so the Bishop of Lincoln, Robert Grosseteste, (meaning ‘bighead’, not ‘uglyballs’ as some have implied), presented the church with a new vicar in the shape of Henry de Wengham.
Is that OK Boss?
Regards,
Neville
Rod said,
September 30, 2010 @ 8:32 am
Neville,
clarity itself - many thanks
I often find these references less than clear / ambiguous partly because of changing styles and partly because many are in Medieval Legaleze.
Take the “sometime the king’s physician” that could be take to mean either man written such as it is.
Also ’sometime’ that could mean he only once helped the king or that he did it for years but no longer does it now because he’s dead.
Best
Rod
Jean McKeating said,
November 27, 2010 @ 7:47 pm
Hi Rod my father as a teenager in the 1930s said during building work in top town they dug up graves from the old St Mary,s grave yard don,t know if this is true or not?Wish he was still here he was a mine of info about Grimsby
Rod said,
November 28, 2010 @ 8:39 am
Jean,
I think it may be as I’ve heard something about this before. There must have been a huge amount of archaeology and infomation lost in and around the town centre.
Regards
Rod
Novice Historian said,
December 31, 2010 @ 2:43 pm
Hi
What a fantastic site!!
The graveyard for St Mary’s still exits as far as I am told. My frind got married at St James the other year and at the rehearsal we had a light hearted discussion with the vicar (i hope I have his title right!!) who was full of knowledge. The site you have is right and the graveyard is at the back of what is now the ‘DN’ pub or Edwards as it was (its the beer garden) If you stand with your back to Abbeygate looking accross the road, the row of building breaks where the beer garden is (there is a wall though). The vicar said this is because its a burial groud and they never built on it when that street was built.
I am sorry if this is common knowledge, just wanted to feel like I knew something!!!!
Rod said,
December 31, 2010 @ 3:09 pm
NH,
thanks for the comment - really appreciated and welcome to the site.
You’ve raised a great point and one that we hadn’t addressed - the exact spot of the graveyard itself !
Great stuff - I’ll do some more digging - though not literally of course
Regards
Rod
Hugh said,
July 21, 2011 @ 1:22 pm
I have again found your site useful and entertaining. I am researching the topography of South St. Mary’s Gate, where my Great Grandmother ran the family iron and brass foundry a century ago. The site became White’s Garage (the works are now Abbygate car park). I would like to find a photo of the art deco frontage.
Rod said,
July 21, 2011 @ 7:34 pm
Hi High,
many thanks - pleased the site has been of some use and interest.
I too would like to get hold of that photo - anybody out there who can help ?
Regards,
Rod
JanTan said,
September 21, 2011 @ 4:28 pm
It’s worth noting of course, that part of Victoria Street was also called North St Mary’s Gate at one time, and that St Mary’s Church did indeed occupy the site surrounded by the ‘St Mary’s Gates’, with Clayton Hall standing approximately where the old Post Office (now Argos) used to be.
Rod said,
September 21, 2011 @ 7:26 pm
Jan,
thanks for taking the time to comment and welcome to the site - hope you’ll return
All the best
Rod