Long Lost Buildings in Grimsby Lincolnshire ~ A Bargate Mystery
Long Lost Buildings in Grimsby Lincolnshire
My interest in local history began with a search for a possible missing building, a great deal has happened since then, many roads have been travelled and much learnt along the way. In that tradition I am proud to present a guest article written by Neville Sisson - our own Amiguru.
It’s extremely interesting and I urge all ‘non-historical’ regulars to give it a read - is very well researched, superbly written (of course) and a genuine mystery.
That’s it from me - over now to Neville to whom I’m massively indebted
‘Mystery Building in Bargate’
Apart from the monasteries, priories and nunneries in mediaeval England there were something like 750 charitable institutions established to offer succour to people with various problems. These came under the umbrella term ‘hospitals’, that is, they offered hospitality with the aim of helping those sick of body where possible but with the ultimately aim to cleanse and refresh the soul of their clients in preparation for a better life to come.
While attempting to aid those with social, medical or spiritual problems they were a necessity for those who had been rejected by society, sometimes through ignorance of their problem but as a mechanism of collective self-preservation albeit under a false premise. Some of these sanctuaries were set up nominally as leper hospitals although over time the number of true lepers accommodated were rather few. The more frequent inhabitants suffered from ills such as ‘bleariness of eye’, ‘ringing in the ears’, ‘fever’, ‘insanity’, ‘epilepsy’, and even ‘a child born blind receiving sight from the heavenly light’!
A 1660 Map of Grimsby
Grimsby in the mediaeval/post-mediaeval periods was endowed with many ‘religious’ establishments, both within and without the town boundaries; St. James Church, St. Mary’s Church, Raynor’s Chantry, Austin Friars, Grey Friars, Wellow Abbey, St. Leonards Nunnery and a possible Knights Templar preceptory given over to the Knights of St. John of Jerusalem as a ‘hospitium’.
There were, as far as I can detect, two hospitals in the Grimsby area:
One dedicated to St. Mary & St. Leger which was established in 1291 which was a true ‘leper hospital’; and one dedicated to St. John, established in 1389, which was not founded particularly to help lepers but as a receiving place for those with other ‘problems’.
I for one, am rather confused in part by the issue of where the ‘hospitals’ were situated. Yes, we can be certain of the approximate position of the ‘hospitium’ on ‘Spittal Hill’ close to Nuns’ Corner but where was the ‘Leper’ hospital? Various suggestions have been made on earlier posts without any conclusive evidence to back up theories.
Edward Gillett in his ‘A History of Grimsby’ even illustrates an alleged position on his map of the town for the mediaeval period. Using all my resources and as far as I can judge, he puts the ‘Leper Hospital’ where Nos. 34-36 Bargate now stand. I cannot find any reference in the book as to the evidence for this being the location. Considering the posts which Mr. Gillett held over the years and the resources to which he seemingly had access I don’t doubt that he had reason for placing it there, however, I have another building to throw into the ring.
I feel sure that as a group, Oliver, Shaw, Davies, Gillett, Lincoln et alia; (some doing research into original documents, others simply repeating their preceding authors opinions, others embroidering ad lib); have collectively served to confuse and confound the issues.
If you have a look at the above map of Grimsby you will notice a building indicated by a red arrow, I suggest that this building has a ‘religious significance’.
What that significance is, I am not certain but it is the only building on this map of Grimsby, apart from St. James Church, which has a cross on its gable end. As you can see, the building is close to the junction of Bargate, Brighowgate and Abbey Road; quite an accessible position yet remote from the town.
It is not easy to see the cross on the full map above so I include below, a ‘close-up’ of the building, which I have rotated into an ‘upright’ position. There is more evidence suggesting that this might be the leper hospital or at least its chapel but here I shall curtail my tale for now.
Regards,
Neville
[later Edit by Rod] Please do check out the comments below, they are superb and offer a goldmine of information - thank you
Rod said,
July 15, 2010 @ 7:48 pm
Neville,
absolutely fascinating - many thanks indeed and I’m sure others would agree.
I’ve just been looking on other maps at the position of it and on Google earth, is it about here do you think
The Site Today ? ~ Scroll Down for Slightly Revised Location
There is, as you say, clearly a cross Neville, I also note that it’s a reasonable sized building. Looking at the others on the map the cartographer has clearly tried to define some buildings as either being larger or more important rather than simply using generic images.
Its also, by the look of it, on Abbey ground as well, pretty much as far away from the Abbey as possible as well.
It does all point toward the idea of a hospital, perhaps an isolation one.
It’s also within its own enclosure as well - it’s really very interesting.
Clearly something significant Neville - fantastic stuff - more digging and ideas required methinks
Thanks and regards
Rod
Little Brother said,
July 15, 2010 @ 8:21 pm
Neville,
Wonderful stuff and once again my ignorance of my home town is illuminated in bright lights. What has struck me about these posts is how I have always taken so many place names for granted without wondering why they were named as they were. They seem blindingly obvious when it’s pointed out! Much like anything else I suppose
Thanks for sharing this.
Miles
History Hunter said,
July 16, 2010 @ 9:01 am
Whoa…..hang on there……Mrs HH may finally be of some use. Whilst I was reading this here article yesterday she saw the photo and piped up “Oh, The Lodge……on Bargate. My Aunty Sue used to live in the first house down Spectacle Row and they used to see the ghost of a monk from the nearby Hospital”
Might this add fuel to the fire?
Amiguru said,
July 16, 2010 @ 12:41 pm
Rod,
Thanks to you and Miles for your kind compliments; they do tend to stoke my fire of enthusiasm for my self-imposed new ‘job’.
I am trying to help untangle the web which time has inevitably woven around truths and half-truths. We each have a contribution to make with our varied skills and experiences and opportunities; that includes HH, Chris, Peter and others who only chip in occasionally with some blindingly revealing factoid. (The oxymoron is intentional guys!)
Firstly Rod, I would suggest that ‘The Lodge’ is just a little too close to the corner and that perhaps the next two houses south, (one with the ‘for sale’ sign), is more ‘on the spot’. If you look at the 1660 map there is a distinct gap between the building in question and Abbey Road. Incidentally, ‘way back then’ it was known as Watery Lane, (there is a reason for that too but will get back to it later).
HH, what a good illustration of my oxymoron, enhanced even more by the name Spectacle Row! Please thank Mrs. HH for ‘chipping in’. I think the use of the name ’spectacle’ may be in the sense of the ghost as an ‘amazing image’ - a spectacle. You could perhaps say, an allusion to an illusion.
Would you ask her if the name refers to Abbey Road or a row of houses along that road or Bargate please.
Now, the next challenge is for Rod to use his stashed millions and go along and buy the ‘for sale’ house; then we could all descend on it and do a proper archaeological dig on the site!
Back to serious: Of course the present buildings on the site are relatively modern, I would suggest mid to late Victorian but I think we have an image of the original building already, or at least what it had become by the 19th century.
About seven months ago, I submitted a picture to the ‘Knights Templar Preceptory’ thread, the issue then was, Which of the three hills was Mill Hill. If you go to that thread, you will notice the picture includes, apart from the mill, a building and indeed, the picture is entitled ‘Old House, Bargate, 1800′.
In light of experience and using yet more maps which have become available, I would suggest that this building might incorporate the Mystery Building. The difficulty of demonstrating this is due to the illustration in the 1660 image being, typically representational yet ‘laid down’ and therefore not easy to orientate.
If the gable end with the cross was facing Bargate, then it is represented in the ‘Old House’ image by the gable end with the door. If this is the case then a later enlargement and extention of the building ’straddles’ the original roof. Of course, the cross is missing but that could have happened for various reasons such as natural decay of the stone, (or indeed wood if that were the material); it may have been removed when the building became secular; it may have been damaged when the building extensions were added; and so on.
If the orientation is such that the larger, ’straddling’ part of the building is the original, running north to south, then we still have the same possibilities regarding the missing cross.
I must say that the ‘Old House’ image is from Bob Lincoln’s book and although he gives accreditation to the well known artist George Skelton for the original drawing, it looks to me as if ’someone’ has touched it up in an amateurish hand, probably because of the primitiveness of reprographics in 1913. I can forgive the ‘touching up’ but perhaps a more skilled hand could have been employed. Incidentally the windmill in the background helps a great deal in locating the ‘Old House’ as I would suggest that it is the 19th. century mill which stood on the site known as Mill Field in Bargate and was the last of a succession of mills, the first of which was mentioned in a charter issued by King John in 1201. The site is easily identified now by the Millfields Hotel!
The issue doesn’t end there as there is another published copy of the Skelton drawing which I shall scan and e-mail to Rod pronto. This one has a couple of twists to it so don’t miss episode two
I shall pause this exhaustive analysis here as I’m sure most of you have either nodded off or moved on. Once again, I apologise for the ‘rabbiting’ but I try to anticipate at least some of ‘Yeh but’s’, that inevitably arise on these threads. Apart from that, I’m hungry
Mentally ragged,
Neville
History Hunter said,
July 16, 2010 @ 1:28 pm
On further questioning, Mrs HH said she meant Abbey Road in general, not specifically the row of houses down Abbey Road as they dont start until about 1/3rd of the way down.
Amiguru said,
July 16, 2010 @ 2:59 pm
HH,
Many thanks for that, I’ll absorb the information and bear it in mind as this thread developes. It may well involve the ‘Watery Lane’ bit
Regards,
Neville
Amiguru said,
July 16, 2010 @ 4:04 pm
‘Hospitium of St. John of Jerusalem’
The above image is from ‘Old Grimsby’ by Rev. George Shaw and predates Bob Lincoln’s book by 16 years. As you can see the picture is of the very same building but has been copied by an artist, more accomplished than the one who ‘touched up’ Bob’s. There are some distinct alterations however, with which I suspect the artist has taken licence. Rev. Shaw is relating the story of the ‘Hospitium of St. John of Jerusalem’ and has annotated the image accordingly.
I acknowledge that there was another ‘hospital’ outside the, literal Bargate, close to St Leonard’s Nunnery but I think by excluding the windmill and raising the horizon, he is using this image to represent that hospital which was supposedly on a hill. Once more, I suspect the tale has been embroidered to fit the yarn.
If we allow that this is the building in the 1660 map then some might argue that where there was a cross there is now a chimney. I would argue that this is the artist in Shaw’s employ taking liberties again with the image. Thinking logically, why would there be a chimney there? On the ground floor there is, so obviously, an open entrance porch and on the first floor there is a window immediately below the ‘chimney’ so where could a fireplace possibly be?
Where does this leave us now? Well, I think there may be a solution to this in going back to source and looking at Skelton’s original drawing, (plus any possible annotation he may have made on the picture). ‘Ok, where is it?’ you may ask. There is a website that I have pointed Rod to in the past which may have the solution. Here is a hyperlink to it
I suspect that the original drawing may well be among that collection, or at least, its whereabouts know to that group. Please, could someone who lives local get in touch with them and try to get a copy of the original drawing? Come on guys, team effort
Regards,
Neville
Rod said,
July 16, 2010 @ 5:18 pm
Neville,
this is going rather well isn’t it
I thought I’d scan in the Skelton picture from Good Ole Bob’s Book
Old House Bargate in Grimsby - G. Skelton 1800
I’ve also done a close up of the doorway which you sent so it can clearly be seen Neville.
The point about the chimney is well made and surely correct !
I’ve abandoned today’s blog post as this is too good Neville - cracking job this !
Best
Rod
Rod said,
July 16, 2010 @ 5:22 pm
Neville,
I think it’s Hugh we have to get hold of - ‘Hugh’s Lockup’ is probably the location if there is such a thing extant.
I’m more than happy to go if it’s possible.
Best
Rod
Rod said,
July 16, 2010 @ 7:39 pm
I’ve prepared this part of a map of medieval Grimsby to highlight some of the things mentioned by Neville
Incidentally the windmill in the background helps a great deal in locating the ‘Old House’ as I would suggest that it is the 19th. century mill which stood on the site known as Mill Field in Bargate
Also to show the corrolation between the mystery building depicted in the illustration a few comments up labelled
“Old House Bargate in Grimsby - G. Skelton 1800″
I’m surprised the building opposite the windmill is not labelled, take a look at the size of it !
Amiguru said,
July 16, 2010 @ 8:20 pm
Rod,
Thanks for the additions+updates they help clarify a lot. Some of the frustrations of having to work through an intermediary
I’ve quite a bit to add progressively but will see if others come up with anything. It has developed pleasingly so far and was worth the effort.
Re Hugh, I say go for it if by whatever route you think appropriate. As you know, I can’t get to these places to photograph etc. otherwise I would; especially as I have the time now. The plot opposite the mill looks ‘busy’ but they may have been say alms houses, barns, simple cots or other such buildings of lesser importance. Another curiosity is that the supposed Leper Hospital site is void of buildings
Another point is that what appears to be a chimney pot may just be the stump of the cross. That gives logic to a degree as to why the house down the road has smoke and this one doesn’t. Yet another thing that the original may clear up. incidentally, that house too is on the map you’ve just added. I would think it is ‘Bank House’ on the 1887 map.
Regards,
Neville
Femme Fatale said,
July 17, 2010 @ 8:36 am
Amiguru,
This is an amazing guest post.
I live in Grimsby and find all the history extremely fascinating, you do not realise what has been on your doorstep, thank you for enlightening me and all of Rods readers, I have learnt so much.
I am looking forward to ‘episode two’ and the discovery of the ‘Mystery Building’
FF
xx
Amiguru said,
July 17, 2010 @ 10:00 am
FF,
Thankyou for your kind comments. Doing these investigations are keeping me busy in my retirement and my Lincolnshire library which has been somewhat dormant for 25 years has been put back on the shelves in a new lease of life. This of course, is augmented by the facilities that the web brings. An undreamed of opportunity when I was young. My diatribes do tend to go on a bit but I know the feeling when you read a little bit of information and there is no extension of it. A bit like a snack, it doesn’t satisfy for long.
Taking on this post has made me appreciate the background research that Rod does before he feeds us our almost daily dose of distraction. Hats off to him and I’m only one of thousands I’m sure who appreciate what he does for us.
Regards,
Neville
Amiguru said,
July 17, 2010 @ 3:21 pm
Rod,
One of the further issues I was going to introduce to this thread was the that of trees. I notice that you had already become sensitised to that point in your post on the Grimsby Leper Hospital thread:
“It boasted it’s own chapel and ash trees. Ash trees have come up twice now in my research. Once in relation to to tax returns and the liabilities of the Burgesses of Grimsby. In 1481 the borough was so strapped for cash that it sold 24 ash trees belonging to the Leper Hospital for £3 6s 8d. with a promise to repay it as soon as was possible
Looking at the 1660 map, as you can see that apart from the rather well endowed enclosure on the top left, there is a dearth of trees elsewhere, except on the perimeter of the ‘Mystery Building’ and the field opposite. Could their symbolic four trees represent the same planting refered to 180 years earlier?
Mystic Nev
Rod said,
July 17, 2010 @ 3:46 pm
Neville,
I was going to make that very point this morning strangely enough but I got sidetracked with a Templar Mill. I was looking for possible references related to this mystery building in Rigby’s Medieval Grimsby when I came across the tree reference again and I thought about the trees on the map just as you did.
Everything on a map means something - or at least that’s what I think !
Best
Rod
Amiguru said,
July 17, 2010 @ 6:49 pm
Watery Lane
The site of the ‘Mystery Building’ seems to have been occupied by one structure or another through the whole of the last 350 years at least and if it is the case, as I am implying, that it was the leper hospital it goes back a further 370 years beyond that.
Here is a more up to date, fairly accurate and detailed map from 162 years ago which shows the buildings on the site; and as you can see, they were quite extensive by then. I have coloured in all bodies of water on this section of the map and a most prominent feature is the ‘pond’ behind our buildings.
I seem to recall having read somewhere that the hospital had its own spring, separate from the one serving the abbey. This would make building the hospital there logical as it would isolate the inmates from sharing the water with others. I shall keep a lookout for the source of that supposed fact and report back as and if, I find it.
Another reason for including this map is to illustrate a suggested reason for the name Watery Lane in times gone by. As can be seen, there are many water courses adjacent to and abutting on this road, particularly at the ‘town end’. In the wet season, i.e. winter, the lane may well have been flooded to some extent and would give good cause for so naming it. I thought about this issue when Mrs. HH, (see above), commented by proxy that houses don’t start until about a third of the way down but on checking the satellite view I see that there are quite large houses in that section though they are set back quite a way from the road.
Looking at this 1848 map, note that really quite elaborate gardens are laid out on the other side of the road. This suggests to me that by then, this was becoming the more affluent end of town and would account for the ‘big’ houses being subsequently built on the abbey side of Watery Lane.
More to come next post about life as a leper 700 years ago. Fascinating, even if I am wrong about the location of the Leper Hospital.
Regards,
Neville
History Hunter said,
July 17, 2010 @ 9:31 pm
I have just overlayed Nev’s ‘water-course’ map onto Google Earth ………………surprise surprise…….have a guess where the buildings overlay?????
Well……………….the site of the buildings on the map overlay…………THE LODGE!!!!!
As the name suggests, Watery Lane was just a lane, single track more than likely when comparing the width with other roadways in the vicinity, so when looking at the plot of land that contains the alleged Hospital, the grounds extend into modern day Abbey Road, wherefore the buildings occupy where the modern day Lodge is, and also extend into the back garden of the neighbouring garden.
The ’spring’ running along the back of the buildings runs along the boundary line of the trees at the back of The Lodge and then heads off cross country to continue along the route of the southern end of Abbey Drive West.
Hope this 10 minutes of HH research helps in some way.
Rod said,
July 18, 2010 @ 8:34 am
HH,
that’s very interesting indeed. When I did the original Google street maps graphic of the lodge which looked subsequently to be too near the road I was going to put as a joke that I’d allowed a little room for road widening !
I wonder if the older maps are precise enough to allow us to pin down exactly where it was ?
Another challenge
Great comment HH
Best
Rod
History Hunter said,
July 18, 2010 @ 9:54 am
Well apart from a few little kinks in the roads in the area, i think it is pretty near enough accurate within maybe a very few metres. The bend in Bargate and Watery Lane/Abbey Road and Brighowgate are lined up perfectly with GE on the old map.
The one bit that does fit perfectly is the line of the spring running across the back of the hospital. It fits absolutely perfectly on the overlay and forms a natural boundary for the plot.
Rod said,
July 18, 2010 @ 10:32 am
You would imagine that it would be more likely the building would actually be on the corner.
Amiguru said,
July 18, 2010 @ 10:44 am
HH&Rod,
Thanks for all that. Like any scientific investigation, it can be repeated and I did just that, except I used the larger scale image of the original map. I took great care to ensure that the scale of both ‘maps’ was as close as can possible be judged and that orientation was correct. My previous judgement as to position was simply based on ‘how it looks’. I accept that part of the main building is under the part of The Lodge nearest to the neighbouring house. The frontage however lies across the two front gardens and the old buildings to the rear lie beneath the ‘for sale’ house and it’s adjoining house. I can e-mail my overlay if you wish but as Rod doesn’t seem keen to buy this portion of Bargate, (despite the buildings being mainly under gardens, and therefore available for a dig), I don’t see that it will achieve much.
All thoughts and contributions are of course welcome. Incidentally, the 1848 map was surveyed by James Meadows Rendal of the Great Grimsby Docks Board & John Fowler of the MS&LR Co.; drawn by Edward Micklethwaite and engraved by J&C Walker. It was the survey preparatory to the coming of the railway, so I think you can expect that the accuracy is pretty high.
Must get on now, as intended, with the Leper’s story as it needs to ‘go to press’ in about 6 hours!
Regards,
Neville
Amiguru said,
July 18, 2010 @ 5:40 pm
As stated previously, Grimsby in the Middle Ages had two ‘hospitals’. The one dedicated to St. Mary and St Leger in 1291 and originally intended as a ‘leper hospital’, I am going to suggest, is the candidate under investigation and possibly located at the site under review.
The other one, probably intended more as a travellers rest’ type of establishment was outside of the physical Bargate in the present Nuns’ Corner area and was either part of, or adjoined to, the former Knights Templars Preceptory which then became The Knights Hospitallers of St John of Jerusalem. This establishment is dealt with elsewhere on the blog so I will leave this aside for now.
What was it like to be a ‘lazar’ in mediaeval England?
Perhaps we should summarise what leprosy is first of all.
It is a reaction of the immune system to certain common bacteria and is currently thought to be transmitted to the upper respiratory tract via nasal droplets. Only about 5% of the world population is vulnerable to it. It manifests itself by producing damage to the skin, limbs, nerves and eyes and over a period of many years can cause severe deformity if untreated. Amazingly, a cure for it was not discovered until the early 1980’s. In order to catch it, it is necessary to be in the above mentioned 5%, be malnourished, lacking in hygienic facilities and be in regular contact with other infected people.
We can all ‘google’ images to see what the outward effects are on the human body but in less enlightened times these poor souls had to put up with a social stigma as well, engendered by the human instinct to ensure self-preservation by avoidance, regardless of any pity they may feel for the afflicted.
The mediaeval solution was to build hospitals, out of town, for these and other outcasts with suspicious diseases to be run by ‘the religious’. Effectively, isolation hospitals. Strict rules were laid down by which the afflicted were to live and here are few examples:
They were to wear a closed tunic down to the ankles and the sleeves were to be ‘closed as far as the hand, but not closed with knots or thread after the secular fashion,’ and the close-fitting cape and hood had to be of equal length. They were forbidden to walk bare-footed and in one location had to wear ox-hide boots reaching above the middle of the shin. While the men wore hoods, women had to wear a double veil, black without and white within. As well as their regular boots they had to wear fur boots when travelling outside where they lived, and carry their clappers or bells wherever they went to ensure others knew that they were lepers.
They were forbidden to go into most public places such as church, (except on a special occasion explained later), markets, taverns, mills, bakehouses or any assemblage of people. If they wanted to buy something they may not touch it but should indicate the item with a rod or staff. They were forbidden to eat or drink with anyone other than other lepers and could not drink directly from a spring or stream and must use their cup or other vessel. Intercourse was forbidden except with their wife or husband, if they were married.
The extreme of the minutiae of their rules is amply demonstrated by the following example:
“I command you when you are on a journey not to return an answer to anyone who questions you, till you have gone off the road to leeward, so that he may take no harm from you; and that you never go through a narrow lane lest you should meet some one.”
They were apparently allowed one visit to a church such as St. James, under equally extreme restrictions with rather creepy implications…..but that must wait for my next post.
Itchy regards,
Neville
Rod said,
July 18, 2010 @ 6:11 pm
This has turned into a thing of beauty Neville - many thanks - just scroll up and down - incredible !
Best
Rod
Steve... said,
July 18, 2010 @ 8:31 pm
We have all heard about ‘plague stones’ but how about the idea of a ‘leper stone’?
There was a bluestone boundary marker at this junction as remarked in…
‘A WALK THROUGH THE STREETS. A small extract from a book called “A Gossip about old Grimsby” by Mr. Bates’
“At the point of the road formed by Bargate and Brighowgate was a pinfold, or parish pound, having in front of it stocks for the punishment of vagrants; and at the point formed by Abbey Road, a large blue stone was embedded, its flat surface being level with the road. I have not been able to ascertain whether any historical importance was attached to it; but it was a pity that it was broken up by the Sanitary Surveyor.”
A quick Google images reveals many roadside leper stones. I qute like this one…
http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/r7SpYkYfwp8qWxz2imj3Yg
Amiguru said,
July 18, 2010 @ 9:49 pm
Thankyou Rod.
Steve,
You have prompted me to get out my copy of Anderson Bates’ book and re-read some of it. Here is a further statement he makes, bear in mind he is writing in 1892:
“At the point of junction of Abbey Road and Brighowgate facing Bargate, a thatched cottage stood, which, with its whitewashed walls and rose covered porch, was always a picturesque object.” Some of that may have been his late Victorian romanticism coming out but we can only take it at face value. That very cottage is on the 1848 map above and I shall e-mail a cropped version of the junction complex to Rod tonight.
Apart from Watery Lane as a former name for Abbey Road he relates that it was also known as Love Lane; I’m sure we can guess why.
He also states that his was the first house built in that road.
I think that the pinfold to which you refer is the small plot on the other ‘point’ on the same map. All will be clearer in the morning I hope.
I had intended to include the information about the bluestones in a later ‘episode’ and shall elaborate on that one then. Among my collection I have about 25 consecutive years of Grimsby Corporation Accounts and there are some amazing facts in there elaborating on the various departments activities. Even down to how much the Ladies Lavatory at Riby Square took per year. The only negative is that they don’t start until 1912 but I’ll have a look nevertheless to see if there is any mention removal of bluestones.
There was a reason for the stocks being there if my Leper Hospital theory is right, but I will explain all in due course - remind me if I don’t
Thanks for the contribution - much appreciated.
Regards,
Neville
Rod said,
July 19, 2010 @ 8:11 am
Map sent in by Neville added to his comment above
Amiguru said,
July 19, 2010 @ 8:48 am
Rod,
Thanks once again for your help with the illustration. The upper of the two maps, (grey one), is the enlargement of the 1848 map and the pinfold and the cottage referred to by Bates can now be clearly seen. The lower (brown), map is form Anderson Bates’ book itself, and although it is to a slightly smaller scale, it gives his impression of the area in 1892.
If you go to Google Maps and look at the area, you will see that the space where the former pinfold was has allowed ample room for the modern sweep of the corner into Brighowgate.
Regards,
Neville
Rod said,
July 19, 2010 @ 8:53 am
Neville,
relating to the Town’s charters, s snippet dated 1641 relating to the muniments of the charters etc handed over from the outgoing mayor to the new one
[sic] the keyes seales the mace 4 statute booksone extent booke of charters 4 silver crestes one old ordinance and the terry of the spitlehowse
Hmmm
Best
Rod
History Hunter said,
July 19, 2010 @ 11:54 am
Spitlehowse! Interesting to say the least when you look at the grey map 4 posts up from this one. There are 3 further buildings towards the back of the ‘main’ building, one of which is a nice and small building separate from all the others. Could that be the (ho)spitle howse? Maybe an isolation unit?
There are many derivations of the spelling but they all seem to have eventually sprung from the shortening of the word ‘hospital’. Spittle, spitle, spital and spytle are the 4 spellings i have found so far. The word ‘Spital’ in its entirety seems to have been round for a lot longer than the word ‘hospital’.
In the famous area of Spitalfields in London the area got its name from the site of the medieval Priory of St Mary Spital, sited there almost 1000 years ago. Originally it had nothing to do with a hospital. In fact the first time the word hospital was used in the modern context was nearly 250 years later by explaining that it was a ’shelter for the needy’. Nothing to do with the sick and dying. In 1418 it was first used to describe a ‘charitable institution to house and maintain the needy’, so by that time it was mainly reliant on handouts from various sources. Officially only by the mid-16th century was the word ‘hospital’ associated as ‘an institution for sick people’. All derivations of the word i.e. hospitallers just related to members of any of several religious orders dedicated to the care of needy, and only later, sick persons.
Hope this helps people in some way to understand the history of Spital’s, spitles, spittles, spytles and hospitals!
Amiguru said,
July 19, 2010 @ 12:08 pm
Rod,
Thanks for that; I’ll chase it up later and see if I can find any more references to it. Of course, this inventory could relate to either of the Grimsby hospitable establishments and may have listed, moveable assets, land held, or both. Exciting stuff to me
I’ve just come back from food shopping in my local town and missed my bus by 1 minute. While waiting for the next one, I did a ‘person watch’; imagining what roles the passers by might have played in mediaeval times. Most amusing and whiled the time away admirably - I thoroughly recommend it!
These thoughts were triggered by my sighting of a lazar when I went to choose a cucumber! There was a poor old guy handling several of the said items and he had lesions all over his neck and the back of his hands. To my shame, I changed my mind and went and got wild rocket instead. I meant him no offence at all but it was most off-putting and I thought afterwards of the mediaeval attitude to lepers
So watch out all you Grimbarians and Meggies, if RC is seen about town in casual waiting mode - he’s probably weighing you up, (even if you’re slim). ;?)
Watching him watching you watching me….
Neville
Amiguru said,
July 19, 2010 @ 1:58 pm
HH,
Thanks for that. I am posting here on the assumption that these buildings were the dedicated leper hospital as opposed to the general travellers’ spittal house, which I suggest was the one at Nuns’ Corner; at least in the 12th - 14th. centuries.
Bigger post to come later.
I suspect that the small building was more likely to be the earth-closet.
Regards,
Neville
Amiguru said,
July 19, 2010 @ 5:36 pm
The leper hospital on the outskirts of many a town was quite a well known sight to most mediaeval travellers . It differed from the regular ’spittal house’ intended for the general wayfarer, merchants and beggars such as the one at St. Leonards; in that it consisted of a group of cot-like buildings or larger hall, with an adjoining chapel. The traveller in passing would be prepared to throw alms to the crippled and disfigured members of that community.
In a town the size of Grimsby it is reckoned that there would probably be no more than half a dozen legitimate inmates in the middle ages and that their needs would be managed by a couple of brethren of the governing religious house, in our case Wellow Abbey; together with a number of servants. Their domestic and hygiene needs thus catered for, their spiritual needs were met by the adjoining chapel. This is why my attention was aroused in the first place by the apparent cross on the gable end of the building illustrated in the 1660 map, (see top of this thread).
There were strict procedures to be followed once a member of the regular town’s community was suspected of having contracted leprosy and would precede his/her deliverance into the leper community.
The unfortunate person would be informed of the coming of the priest at an appointed time and had to be ready, dressed in his regular clothes plus an additional cloak. On his arrival, the priest in his full regalia and preceded by the Cross would address the victim in comforting words and advise him that though sick of body, he was whole of soul and that if he bore his affliction patiently he would be rewarded with everlasting salvation.
Once the unfortunate had been sprinkled with holy water the procession would leave; the Cross, followed by the priest and finally the sick man or woman. They would proceed to the parish church where there would be prepared a black cloth draped between two trestles, before the altar. The man would then kneel beneath the black cloth, ‘after the manner of a dead man’, and in this position he would hear Mass and when over he would once again be sprinkled with holy water after which a series of prayers and set phrases would be uttered before the priest leading him from the church would say the versicle, ‘Libera me Domine’ – ‘Release me O Lord’.
The priest would then read to the leper a whole series of restrictions which would govern his life thereafter and remind him of the Ten Commandments. He would then be free to join the Lazar Hospital.
Regards,
Neville
Rod said,
July 19, 2010 @ 5:47 pm
Neville,
I’ll give that people spotting a go - it’s more than just an amusing aside in my opinion.
You’re even wiser than you appear from the written word Neville, leaving the cucumber - stick with wrapped stuff in the future !
Good job chocolate bsicuits come pre wrapped
he’s probably weighing you up, (even if you’re slim). ;?)
That’s a good point of role reversal really in terms of social standing and income, once the bigger you were the higher up the social and financial ladder you tended to be - now according to modern day statistics it’s the reverse.
I’ve just read your last comment and it’s inspired an idea which I’ll look into which would back up your theory of the two hospitals and one being confused.
Fantastic stuff Neville, really appreciated
All the best
Rod
Rod said,
July 19, 2010 @ 7:52 pm
I’ve now added this to the ‘choice articles’ section top right in the sidebar !
History Hunter said,
July 19, 2010 @ 9:54 pm
Nev and Rod
“This is why my attention was aroused in the first place by the apparent cross on the gable end of the building illustrated in the 1660 map”
Having seen your picture of a typical Spittal House and then reading your little comment-ette quoted above, i then returned to the aforementioned lickle piccy and noticed that as well as the cross on the gable end, that the building seems to extend from both sides of the central part, with albeit identical structures (including chimneys)!
Could this be the general depiction of a Spittal House with the central Chapel with 2 side dormitories?
This blog is getting far too interesting. Mrs HH is getting more and more into checking this website on a daily basis.
Please stop all this interesting stuff. I cant have anything to myself! Its not fair! **STOMP STOMP**
Amiguru said,
July 19, 2010 @ 11:29 pm
HH,
Thanks for that vote of confidence
Regarding Mrs. HH - Apparently, if I may borrow a Frank Carson expression, “Its the way I tell’um”
Seriously,
Despite all I’ve written, I’m still keeping an open mind as to where the location of the Leper house was but I think that the ‘Mystery Building’ is still a strong candidate. There is at least one more episode to come in this particular saga; and if my theory re the location is proven wrong the general information is still pukka and I hope you’ve enjoyed the journey. Incidentally, It has taken about 12 hours research to get this far and I for one have learned a huge amount. Home straight in sight, then after a little break, I’ll start on the St. Leonards thread and fatten it up a bit!
Also, the seal about half way down of a leper on crutches is from the lepers of Lincoln tempus Henry II.
Incidentally, I forgot to annotate the last picture above so would just point out that it is not the priest laying down the rules but the physician diagnosing leprosy
Regards,
Neville
History Hunter said,
July 20, 2010 @ 2:07 am
Thanks for explaining the last picture Nev.
Personally i thought it was someone dressed as Julius Caesar, on a stag do,, with a condom on his head having a polite late night conversation with a fellow evening drinking establishment patron dressed as Mr Punch!!!!
How wrong could i be?!?!?!?!?!?!
Amiguru said,
July 20, 2010 @ 4:31 pm
Lazar Houses and their Decline
I could have written acres of prose about leprosy and its effects, management and influence on society but to spare the reader, the foregoing is but a summary.
From time to time the expression ‘lazar’ has cropped up with no explanation. The term derives from the little known order of The Knights of St. Lazarus who were the first to offer relief to lepers.
It is widely considered that leprosy was brought into Britain by crusaders returning from the middle east although not all scholars are convinced by this. Voltaire makes the satirical observation, (bearing in mind that many of the crusaders were French), that ” All that we gained in the end by engaging in the Crusades, was the leprosy; and of all that we had taken, that was the only thing that remained with us.”
The presence of the disease in these islands was certainly established by the eleventh century and was rampant throughout the Norman Period. This situation gradually changed though over the following centuries, in part due to the increasing establishment of religious houses who through the support of their sponsors built most of the leper hospitals.
By the 14th. century leprosy had declined to such an extent that the leper houses gradually became sanctuaries for the aged, infirm, poor and so on and took on a role running in parallel with the regular ho’spital’ity houses which catered for the regular itinerants.
Among the quite rich archive of Grimsby’s borough documents there is the occasional reference to our own leper house. On Tuesday 14th. January, 1483 a memorandum was written stating that “William Glasyner, then Mair of Grimesby and dyvers odir Burges sold to Steven del See and to dyvers mo iiijxx esch trese growyng in the Spetyll Garthes of Grimesby for iijli vjs viijd, to the expenc’ to be made of our Sofferane Lord our King…….[and they] schall spend and ware on for the said Spetyll House at dyvers tymes 5 marcs.”
Eighty ash trees sold for £3.33 in our money; what would they cost today? I’ll just pop to B&Q and enquire.
There are more references among the said deeds but I feel that they allude to the ‘other’ spittalhouse and I shall refer to them in due course on that thread.
Here my potted contribution must end but, if you know anything more or have an opinion on the subject, I know Rod would love you to post it here to help us fathom as near to the truth as we can get.
As regular readers will know, I just love maps, so I feel it fitting that I should end with yet another. Here is the area under review in 1887 and it gives yet more clues to the history of ‘The Mystery Building’.
Bearing in mind that the original, supposed, leper-house was probably replaced or severely modified between the 15th and 19th centuries and become a private home; this may well be the most recent image we have of how the ‘Old house, Bargate’ looked prior to demolition and the subsequent building of what is now ‘The Lodge’.
Notice that it is much nearer to the road and that the two ‘late Victorian’ houses have necessitated demolition of some of the former outbuildings. I think it is a shame that it doesn’t bear the label ‘The Ashes’ and I’m sure that it was history’s joke to call the building behind ‘The Elms’, a name which it retains today. Another interesting property which I deliberately included was ‘Springfield’, the plot of which may have contained the original spring which was the source of the ‘pond’ alluded to in my ‘Watery Lane’ comment above.
Fare ye well in your travels and remember – Watch out for spits and spots or you’ll end up in the Spittal
Neville
Rod said,
July 20, 2010 @ 4:40 pm
Neville,
I’m sure I speak for everyone in thanking you for all the time, trouble and effort that’s gone into this staggering page.
I would urge everybody to scroll up and down and take a look at it in its entirety, quite fabulous.
It has been, and remains so, a fascinating study and as Neville mentions if you know anything at all connected to the building illustrated on the maps above or you have any opinions please do leave a comment.
All the best
Rod
Amiguru said,
July 20, 2010 @ 4:57 pm
Rod,
Thanks for that comment. I have one request, would you amend ‘Forty ash trees sold for £3.33…’ to read ‘Eighty ash treessold for £3.33…’ please. The original reads iiij with a superscripted xx obviously means four score; I just had a mental abberation in converting it
Regards,
Neville
Amiguru said,
July 20, 2010 @ 7:42 pm
HH,
Yes, it was before pigs’ intestines with a knot in the end; I think they knitted them in those days.
Regards,
Neville
History Hunter said,
July 20, 2010 @ 8:16 pm
Nev, thanks for your great contributions on this thread.
One little thing to add to your last but one entry. Yes i know its transmogrifying from the original subject but its worth knowing.
You mention about the property called ‘Springfield’, well next door to it was ‘Spring Villa’, built at the same time. They were both built in 1861 as ‘twin’ houses. In 1890 a gentleman by the name of Edward Bannister owned Springfield, and William Wintringham owned Spring Villa. Oddly enough, they were only classed as middle class housing! I’d have loved to have seen upper class housing if they were only middle class houses. By 1900 Springfield was already showing damage from water movement and the walls were pebble-dashed to cover the cracks up. Both houses were greatly extended over time and Spring Villa even had stabling at the rear of the property.
There is also evidence of a watercourse running from the rear of the original Wheatsheaf pub into the area near the Riverhead, from the Abbey pond. I seem to recall within my lifetime, or at least being told about it, that a mooring ring and the remains of a small boat were found there some years ago. I believe they were found towards the back edge of the car park when the ground was being worked for relaying the surface.
The present Wheatsheaf building was originally built as a private house, known as Bank House, before becoming a Girls’ High School.
Makes you wonder if there are more teenage girls that frequent the building now than back in the days of it being a school!!!
Photo to follow
The man and woman in the photo are Mr and Mrs Bannister. He was a wealthy coal merchant and Mayor of Grimsby from 1868-1869, and it was he who presented the clock tower to the Town that was in the Central Market.
Spring Villa is of course still in situ in its latest guise as a Nursery School.
Incidentally, in the latter years of Springfield being in situ, there was a hell of a lot of subsidence due to ‘ground water movement’ (official term)
Subsequently Springfield House, as it had become, was knocked down and when they were preparing the ground for the new , and to quote Prince Charles, ‘monstrous carbuncle’ of a building, i had heard that they had to pile drive almost 100 feet down to hit the solid stuff! Now that is some spring!!!
Amiguru said,
July 20, 2010 @ 9:51 pm
HH,
That’s great information, no problem really with expanding the issue as it is in the same area and some incidental information may have dual relevance. I did know most of the above as Oliver and Bates both relate the early stuff but to others it is most informative I’m sure. To quote Bates in 1893 re the boat: ” ….for on cutting a drain behind the Wheatsheaf Inn, during the enclosure, fragments of an ancient boat moored by a chain to a post were discovered.” He also elaborates about Spring Villas etc. and the spring.
What’s more the Wheatsheaf must have been a boat in the old days as on the 1887 map it was on the opposite side of Bargate almost in line with Bank House! Can provide the image if required
Ironically, I am very aware of Bannisters coal-merchants as my Dad, who joined the RAF in 1936 and did the Egypt, Palestine, Italy circuit during the war, when demobbed in 1946, along with thousands of others was desperate for a job. The First one he got was as a coalman with, youve guessed it, Bannisters! He didn’t stick that for long as it was hard work for an ex-brylcream boy and managed to get into the Docks Police and used to man the Police box on the Dock Gates. Small world isn’t it?
Regards,
Neville
History Hunter said,
August 5, 2010 @ 10:32 pm
Have just been reading Mr Bates book on Grimsby and there is quite a bit about the Bargate area. Yes, i know some of you have read the book, but i bet there are lots more who havent, so i shall add a few snippets from it.
“At the corner of Welholme Road stood a post wind corn-mill, which was burnt down about forty-five years ago.”
“There was a treadmill in the old House of Industry which worked with the weight of four men, and ground sufficient corn for the use of all the inmates: it also ground bones for manure, worked a circular saw, and turned a grindstone. It was invented and erected by William Sherlock, son of the Governor of the House, for the purpose of curing the sham sick, idle, and disorderly inmates.” MAYBE PRISONS SHOULD HAVE THESE INSTALLED
“In digging the foundations of the malt-kiln at the end of Brighowgate in the year 1825, were found in a good state of preservation an ivory figure of St. James, and a half figure of Our Saviour as He hung dead on the Cross, the lower part being broken off, the ribs of the naked body being perfect, and the upper part of the head perforated all round to imitate the punctures by the crown of thorns.”
chris keyworth said,
August 5, 2010 @ 10:48 pm
the last paragraph is interesting tony i was only telling rod on monday about the abbey behind the train station this reinforces what i said to him about the brigogate site that john sills investigated some years back in and behind what is now the jewelers first house on the right past what was the Fiat garrage..
regards
chris
History Hunter said,
August 9, 2010 @ 6:31 pm
In the first picture, the scene is looking down towards what is now the ‘Wheatsheaf’ pub, which can be seen in the background. Back then it was still known as Bank House and was privately owned. Behind the carriage i believe that they are the ‘Spring Villas’ that were mentioned in the Bargate Mystery thread. The small addage that can be seen towards the back of the buildings is the stabling that was built at the back of Spring Villa, as there was no extaension like that on the back of Springfields.
If assumed measurements are correct, then that would make the building front left almost on the site of ‘the mystery building’. May be interesting to see if THAT tree is still standing!!! It does have a particualr curve in the trunk. Also could be checked to see if the trees are on the other side of the road too
In the second picture i am having difficulty working out exactly where in Bargate it could be. There are no turns like the one shown in the road, that is, assuming that it is a turn in the road and not a junction.
Once again, how about the suggestion that it may be Bargate running along the back, left to right, and this is none other than the Watery Lane / Love Lane junction. Large trees can be seen at the back of the two trees in the forground, and large old buildings can be seen to the left.
Who knows???
Rod said,
August 9, 2010 @ 6:33 pm
HH,
great stuff many thanks - how the place has changed - and not for te better I might add
Best
Rod
Amiguru said,
August 11, 2010 @ 12:46 pm
HH,
Just catching up with comments as I’ve been a little busy of late. Superb pictures, just hope Kath doesn’t mind; IYKWIM
I have a problem with the first postcard. There is a monochrome version of it in Boswell & Storey’s ‘Grimsby As It Was’ vol. I and their description reads - ” Bargate, looking from Fryston Corner. Just in front of the second lamp-post is the entrance to Bargate Avenue, then a narrow lane.” That prompted me to examine the large scale 1887 map and drew the following conclusions.
If the photograph was taken from close to Fryston corner, (i.e. the Bargate/Weelsby Rd. junction), then the nearest house could only be the next one north of the house named ‘Nunsfield’; as Nunsfield was set back from the road by about two road-widths, just out of shot to the left, whereas the one I am suggesting, fronted straight onto the road.
That would still make the building on the left in the distance, ‘The Wheatsheaf’, but not the one you are suggesting which was originally Bank House. Bank House is out of shot to the right due to it being slightly set back and due to trees and the fact that the road kinked to the right slightly just before Welholme Road. I would suggest that the building in the far distance is in fact Alexandra Lodge, which was virtually opposite our original ‘mystery building’.
Need more evidence? If so, look at the right-hand kerb running from the nearest lamp-post towards the camera - it has a slight curve which matches perfectly the curve on the map at this point.
More? Photographic postcards didn’t appear until around 1900 as far as I can ascertain. The horse-drawn trams were introduced at Grimsby/Cleethorpes in 1880 and ran from The Kingsway, Cleethorpes to Welholme Road junction in Bargate with a passing loop opposite The Wheatsheaf. Ergo, if the the picture was taken in the direction you suggest then there would certainly be tram rails in the foreground road by 1900.
What do you think?
Kind regards,
Neville
Rod said,
August 11, 2010 @ 12:49 pm
Picture Update:
I’ve been to the reference library and there are clearly 3 version of the same drawing.
Good ole Bob’s looks to be a copy rather than a touched up version, there’s another with the name Skelton on and this one which is the best of the lot
Skelton also did publishing I understand therefore his name by an image or ‘with kind permission of’ labels may refer to him as publisher rather than artist in some or all cases.
Note John J Cresswell bottom right
My thanks go to Simon at the Library for his kind help and interest
All the best
rod
Rod said,
August 11, 2010 @ 1:04 pm
Neville,
how spooky is that - we both revisited this post within 3 minutes !
To add to the spookiness another version the illustration I’ve just put up is labelled up in the library as The Old Wheatsheaf.
Cheers
Rod
[edit] cresswell appears to have been an architect involved in 1891 – New Turkish & Hydropathic Baths, Grimsby, Lincolnshire
Amiguru said,
August 11, 2010 @ 3:49 pm
Rod,
Wehey! I finished writing the above remark to HH then thought, ‘better check my e-mails’ - and there was the picture!
Now this complicates things further. Brilliant find and more discreet clues on it. Firstly, (thank goodness), it doesn’t detract from what I’ve said to HH about the postcard; secondly, it does reinforce the fact that there was an earlier ‘Wheatsheaf’; but thirdly, if it is the earlier ‘Wheatsheat’ then our original mystery building on the 1660 map is not in the identical place to the one in the G. Shaw drawing which is in fact this one looking in the opposite direction! If only artists and photographers would annotate ‘looking north, east, south or west’ as the case may be. Sorry if that is confusing
Next clue, although you haven’t mentioned it yet Rod, there again is the windmill, but, if this is the ‘old’ Wheatsheaf, then that cannot be the mill that was in ‘Mill Field’ but can only be the post-mill that was in Cartergate.
[Later edit by site owner] See Catergate Post Mill Here
Annotations: G Skelton delt. means that he drew the original, delt. standing for ‘delineated’, so Cresswell is acknowledging Skelton as the original artist. He signs himself as ‘John J Cresswell aq fort’, which suggests to me that he etched it as aq. fort. stands for aqua fortis, ’strong water’, nitric acid, which is indeed used in some etching. Usually if engraved it is indicated by ’sculpt.’ but not too sure of this as I haven’t come across this expression before.
Finally, either Skelton or Cresswell are using the reversed ‘S’ as a stylistish affectation or they were left-handed. I am quite familiar with this phenomenon, working with ‘lefties’ in school. Another hint is that left-handers have tendency to being artistic, being right-brained, (all to do with alpha-rhythms, but I won’t go down that avenue today!). Incidentally, I’m left-handed.
In conclusion, I’m pretty certain that the picture was drawn by Skelton in 1871 and an etching of it made in 1904 by the left-handed Cresswell. Why? Look closer at the bottom RH side in the actual image - Cresswell has signed it CJJ 1904, with the ‘9′ and the ‘4′ reversed!
Scrutinisingly yours,
Neville
Rod said,
August 11, 2010 @ 4:37 pm
Neville,
I don’t think it is The Old Wheatsheaf nor did the librarian, he thought it was a mistake.
We consulted your annotated map in the original article and compared it to another map in the library.
The info regarding artists and the abbreviations used is tremendouslly helpful Neville.
My confusion was that the Cresswell looked by far the best and most detailed suggesting the others were copies.
However it post dates the presumed date of the Skelton.
It’s clear now why I thought it a different artist then as it was
Best
Rod
Amiguru said,
August 11, 2010 @ 8:17 pm
Rod,
Thanks for that; so it is still possibly ‘as you were’ with it being a later or modified building on the site of the 1660 building.
Regarding the version issues; it is possible that Skelton may well have been a keen and moderately accomplished artist intent on recording for either pleasure or posterity or both, while Cresswell simply copied his picture afresh and was just a more skilled artist. After all if you couldn’t draw fairly well you wouldn’t do much business as an architect would you? I think Lincoln’s effort can be discarded as interesting but unreliable.
Another detail that has come to my attention is the ‘front chimney’ issue. In close-up it is obvious that there is no chimney on the front gable and George Shaw’s copyist has used license to add one.
Thanks once again for going to all the trouble. One day we will, no doubt, sort it all out
Regards,
Neville
History Hunter said,
August 11, 2010 @ 10:43 pm
Typical! Something that seemed so simple, turns out to be anything but!
Anyway, what do you think about the second picture? Can you place it?
Nev, its no secret where i got the pix from, they are easily accessible to anybody but thought they may be of use on here.
Amiguru said,
August 12, 2010 @ 11:51 am
HH,
Will reply properly later regarding the second pic as I want to do a good job of it. Just a mild leg-pull re the pix
Regards,
Neville
Amiguru said,
August 12, 2010 @ 4:12 pm
HH,
Having scrutinised the ‘original’ image in detail, my position is this:
I agree that it seems that if Bargate is in the picture at all, then it is running left to right, across the road from which the picture is taken. I cannot reconcile, using ‘Streetview’, any portion of any house in either Bargate, Abbey Road or Brighowgate to the buildings in the picture. Therefore if it is within the vicinity of these junctions, the houses in the postcard must have both been demolished and the sites rebuilt on. That said, I wonder if we are in Brighowgate looking across the corner through to Abbey Road. I would have loved to say that we are looking across the town ‘pinfold’, (see above), especially as there are railings enclosing that corner, but I accept that the junction doesn’t look right for that theory.
However the above is resolved, or not, I would like to do a bit of lateral thinking. Today, when we say ‘Bargate’, we think ‘leafy main route out of Grimsby running south towards Nuns Corner’; or something like that. Thinking etymology, is it staring us in the face?! Is this in fact the location of the ‘bargate’? I’ve instinctively thought of ‘the bargate’ as having been near Fryston Corner, mainly because the tollgate was there, but if you go and re-read Gillett at the bottom of page 3 he says:
“If any cart came to the bars at Bryghowe* it was unloaded and the corn carried on horseback to the haven……….etc.
*These were probably at the junction of Bargate and Brighowgate where St. Mary’s Cross then stood”
More salient points, particularly if you look at the original image:
The boy in the picture is dressed in late Victorian/ early Edwardian style. He is sitting on what is apparently a baulk of timber that has embedded into the two large ash trees and has therefore been in situ for a long time. There is a second level curb which is possibly there to have been a reinforcement of some structure. The ash trees are planted extremely close together and may well have been part of the ‘bargate’. I am speculating but I imagine it to have been a vertically lifting beam, resting normally across the road, possibly on the ‘bluestone’ mentioned above by Steve; or is it indeed the ’second level curb’ as I’ve called it?!
That will have to do for now but I shall give it more thought and go through the available maps etc. and report back in due course.
Regards,
Neville
Gordon Luck said,
August 12, 2010 @ 5:45 pm
Neville,
I wonder if it’s the junction of Bargate and Dudley Street, the 2 houses being on Dudley Street? Extensive demolitions took place here in the 1960’s as part of road “improvements”.
Amiguru said,
August 12, 2010 @ 5:57 pm
Gordon,
Good thinking there but, if the view is from Bargate with Dudley Street on the left, as you say, there would be tramlines in the road in the foreground after 1880. (See above). Certainly worth a try though. All ideas welcome
Regards,
Neville
History Hunter said,
August 12, 2010 @ 7:12 pm
Hang on……..Brains has got it!
Its Nun other than Nun’s Corner, with Scartho Road heading off to the left.
I firstly had to check where Bargate actually runs to, and its right upto the roundabout at Nuns Corner. I had it in my head that it stopped at Fryston Corner.
The house hidden behind the trees is now owned by Robin Furman, parapsychologist and ‘ghosthunter’
If Rod will add one further picture, i have a piccy from a different angle proving my theorum.
Here endeth the lesson.
Mrs HH said,
August 12, 2010 @ 8:13 pm
I hate to prove HH wrong but I’m his wife and that’s my job! The location is correct, but the view ahead is Scartho Road the houses on the right are still standing. Going further off to the left is the location of the Cenotaph and behind that is Robin Furman’s house. To the right is Laceby Road. I think so anyway!
Amiguru said,
August 12, 2010 @ 8:37 pm
HH,
Well done old bean! Funny isn’t it - asking a question in public enables you to answer it yourself. No need for more ‘proof’, just go to ‘Streetview’. The best view is from the dual-carriageway as if you turn into Scartho Road the trees get in the way.
You could have saved me a lot of work but it doesn’t matter as its all grist to the mill and the other info may be useful at some point. What a shame the old ash trees etc. disappeared in the ‘improvements’.
Regards,
Neville
History Hunter said,
August 12, 2010 @ 8:49 pm
Of course i meant Scartho Road runs away from the viewer with Bargate running from the left. Silly me……….I actually had it pointed out to me by Mrs HH. How foolish of me!
Mrs HH said,
August 12, 2010 @ 8:53 pm
I hate to prove HH wrong but I’m his wife and that’s my job! The location is correct, but the view ahead is Scartho Road, and the houses on the right are still standing. Going further off to the left is the location of the Cenotaph and behind that is actually where Robin Furman’s house is. Robin Furman has investigated at the house that HH mentioned, but does not own it.
Amiguru said,
August 12, 2010 @ 9:18 pm
HH,
Don’t worry, I knew what you meant, and in any case you were refering to the original picture weren’t you?!
Male logic, isn’t it?
Regards,
N
Rod said,
August 13, 2010 @ 7:58 am
Mrs HH,
welcome to the site !
but I’m his wife
You have our heartfelt sympathies
All the best
Rod
Mrs HH said,
August 13, 2010 @ 5:05 pm
Thanks for the vote of sympathy Rod! I love your site, and often have a nosey, so thought I’d put my 10pence worth in and correct HH in print for a change, verbal corrections are so boring! Public humiliation is much more entertaining!! and anyone who knows HH will know he is used to public humiliation! lol
Rod said,
August 13, 2010 @ 6:43 pm
Mrs HH,
love it - very funny
Best
Rod
Rod said,
August 15, 2010 @ 5:38 pm
Neville,
if it is the earlier ‘Wheatsheat’
it definately isn’t. I showed my father the picture today and he remembers the original Wheatsheaf - his father used to drink in there. He says it wasn’t the sketch above but a small, simple plain white building and was situated directly opposite the current Wheatsheaf.
The brewery bought the building which is now the wheatsheaf which used to be a Girl’s School but were not allowed to have a licence for both so the old building was demolished.
Best
Rod
Amiguru said,
August 15, 2010 @ 7:51 pm
Rod,
Quality information; as you keep mentioning, there is nothing to beat first hand accounts. Well done Mr. Collins Senior
The maps, particularly the latest available, shown here for 1889, confirm the ‘Wheatsheaf’ situation, with Welholme Road going off to the right. Also in the picture, can clearly be seen, the tramway terminus and passing loop.
Regards,
Neville
Steve Johnson said,
January 5, 2011 @ 6:15 pm
As a Grimbarian born and bred (born 1947 at 138 Victor St) I have just stumbled over this site and I have been facinated by it and all the history you all have uncovered.You spoke of springs and ponds etc near this mystery building,would this have anything to do with the undergroud river that runs under Abbey Rd and Ainsley St? Anyway will keep my eye on this site for the next episode. Regards Steve Johnson
Rod said,
January 5, 2011 @ 6:58 pm
Steve,
thanks for the comment and a warm welcome to the site.
Very interesting pint about the underground river - it’ll be well worth looking into
Kind regards
Rod
option911 said,
January 6, 2011 @ 8:25 pm
In the picture depicting Mr & Mrs Bannister outside Spring Villa, Mrs Bannister was origianally married to William Marshall who was one of the partners of William Marshall & sons Flour mills(my distant Grandfather). They lived in East Villa on Scartho Road. Does anyone know the name of mrs Bannister/Marshall? William Marshall was also the Prussian Vice Consulate in Grimsby, can anyone shed any light on this?
mary ellen said,
February 7, 2011 @ 3:41 pm
so pleased a firnd pointed me to this site the detail is fascinating
Rod said,
February 7, 2011 @ 3:54 pm
Mary Ellen,
thanks for the comment and a warm welcome to the site - pleased you found it of interest - dig around there’s plenty more to see
All the best
Rod
Barbara Robson said,
April 1, 2011 @ 9:45 am
Hi,
I got to this site via “secondhandbooks”, one of the dangers of wandering in the web.
However I was pleased to see a reference to Lazars as I am writing a novel (sorry) called Lazards Field a name inspired by the stone halfway up Highgate Hill in London.
Although there is a statue of a cat seated upon this stone (said to be the point where Dick Whittington heard the bells that made him “turn again Whittington”)the stone itself commemorates the Lazars Field which lay roughly where Whittington Hospital now stands. I am not sure if this actually a leper stone, but now my interest is re-arroused I might check that out.
These steep Hills to the north of London were popular sites for hospitals as the air was fresher. There was also a leper hospital lower down at the junction of St Pauls Road with Essex Road (formerly Lower Street).
On the point of underground rivers, my friends Daisy and Roger Lewis once walked all the tributaries of the River Lee and many of these are now “boarded rivers”, including the stream that ran at the bottom of my garden in Islington, the path of which is traced by a sexy little wiggle in the back garden walls here, which was obviously some kind of boundary marker prior to the houses being built in 1861. The house/shop that Daisy and Roge lived in was mid terrace but built after the others. this was presumably because “my” stream cut through the terrace here and caused problems. To prove his point Roge dug a well in his back gardenand placed a handpump on it. They used this quite often. Before our houses were built the area was “market gardens”, possibly because of the number of streams which ran here.
Sorry to go on so, but I am over stimulated by your site!
Barbara R
Rod said,
April 1, 2011 @ 6:51 pm
Barbara,
thanks for taking the time to share that valuable background information, really appreciated and a warm welcome to the site.
Best of luck with the book
Regards,
Rod
History Hunter said,
April 17, 2011 @ 12:35 am
Having a trawl thru an archaeological website I found this little piece of info that i thought may add, once again, to this cracking thread.
Founded in the 13th century for leprous men and women. It was still extant in 1475, and is depicted on a map of Grimsby of 1491. It was located West of Bargate.
WEST? That would put it on the side of 34-36 Bargate! Still standing on a map in 1491 as well? Maybe we HAVE been looking in the wrong place all along???
Rod said,
April 17, 2011 @ 6:36 pm
HH,
very interesting and a good point - there’s still room for research on this subject, plenty of room I think.
Also congratulations on fine usage of html and tags in the comment - very effective and nice to see them used
Regards
Rod