I suspect a new thread may be called for here . . . as to maps . . . mmmmm as Homer Simpson would say
Cheers
Rod

Beware the dreaded North Wind!

As you know, my little questions have profound purposes. The Master is obviously steering clear of this one for now; methinks a wee map might tempt him.

“….listed as somewhere near Redbourne.” “That’s a red herring” as the fishwife of Scunthorpe said. This ‘Hilstal and Tunstall’ are within a 5 mile radius of Grimsby!

Regards,
Ion

Saying that, i have just had a look around the interwidewebnet and the only Tunstall Priory that is listed as being somewhere near Redbourne (the exact location is unknown)

Now Hilstal, thats a different kettle of trout. I know absolutely sod all about it. Never heard of it.

Are you sure you don’t lay there in a darkened room at a weekend and think up things to confuse us all?

As Anon said just a few posts ago, are you sure its not a ‘quillo’?

My guess is it’s an early example of the typo (a quillo?)

Helby doesn’t, and never did exist. I think that it all happened by a series of unhappy accidents and the rather dubious honour of the name ‘Helby’ would seem to have been bestowed variously on Limber Magna, Keelby and an imagined place created ‘because so-and-so has it on his map so it must be there’.

Over the last two days I have acquired 17 more historical maps of Lincolnshire and two of these also have a ‘Helby’; one, most significantly, is the latest date we have for this phenomenon, it being the Jefferys & Dunn map of 1776.

The earliest map, so far, to bear the honour is Morden’s of 1695. It might be assumed therefore that the blame lies at his door and indeed I think, well it might. My logic is that he was a prolific English map-maker, (among other things), and his most famous series was the ‘County Maps’ produced under his direction for the new edition of Camden’s Britannia published that year. The maps in the previous editions by Messrs. Hole and Kip did not include a ‘Helby’, (I have this edition in my collection).
The preface to the 1695 edition states:
“The Maps are all new engraved, either according to Surveys never before published, or according to such as have been made and printed since Saxton and Speed. Where actual Surveys could be had, the were purchased at any rate; and for the rest, one of the best Copies exant was sent to some of the most knowing Gentlemen in each County; with a request to supply the defects, rectified the positions, and correct the false spellings. An that nothing might be wanting to render them as complete and accurate as might be, this whole business was committed to MR. ROBERT MORDEN, a person of known abilities in these matters, who took care to revise them, to see the slips of the Engraver mended, and the corrections, returned out of the several Counties duly inserted. Upon the whole, we need not scruple to affirm, that they are much the fairest and most correct of any that have yet appeared.”
Damning evidence indeed, but ultimately, I think the real blame lies with the Lincolnshire ‘Gentleman’, whoever he was, sending either a wrongly corrected draft or that he had such a slovenly hand that his annotation was misinterpreted.

Whatever the case, once it was published in such a prestigious work, who dare question it? For the next, almost century, up to the point when real surveying began, it was a case of ‘Chinese whispers’ as Mordens map was the most likely to be used as a reference by other cartographers as their “most reliable source”. This would no doubt be the case for mapmakers on the continent, the Dutch in particular, who were really prolific and skilled in mapmaking as they were also a maritime nation. French and Scandinavian mapmakers too followed suit, and so ‘Helby’ became a legend.

Continentals, less familiar with England and it’s placenames, may also have looked at extant maps and noticed how many places there were in NE Lincs. ending with ‘by’ added to which is the fact that nearby was a place called, (and spelled then), ‘Heling’; so why not ‘Helby’ as a neighbour? I can imagine that if verbal enquiries made of a fellow Hollander who had travelled to England as to its name he may even had said ‘Kelby’ but with the characteristic Dutch gutteral accent. Try saying ‘Kelby’ with a ‘ch’ as in ‘loch’.
We English, on the other hand generally can’t, for instance, pronounce ‘Vincent van Goch’ correctly, and the American effort is just laughable.
If the shoe, or rather clog, were on the other foot……..

I have, as usual made a meal of a seemingly tiny issue but I hope my arguments are plausible.

Exhaustively yours,
Neville

“Nun Cotham was actually part of a hamlet where i had previously thought it had been built out in the middle of nowhere for the sake of sanctity…….”
“its not the grange mate its Stepney….”

I’ve checked the period maps and Stepney, is part of Keelby and the Keelby parish boundary is immediately behind, what used to be at least, Somerscales sawmills. Nuncoton is in fact part of Brocklesby parish.

Regards,
Neville