Helby in Lincolnshire ~ What and Where is it ?
Helby ?
I was just looking at an engraved map of Lincolnshire, 1742 by J.Badeslade published in the Chorographia Britanniae, when I saw a name, it cropped up before some time ago when Neville brought it to my attention, Helby !
Have you ever heard of it . . .
A Google search for “Helby” Lincolnshire proves fruitless - how can at least 3 maps mention a place and nobody else seemingly does. Antiquarian books on Lincolnshire and English Heritage likewise yield no results, the only interesting reference I came across was a birth record: Sarah Burkitt 1817 Helby Lincolnshire
Lincolnshire 1770 - Sent in by Neville
If you look at all three maps you’ll see each one has a large symbol apparently depicting a ‘church’. These are symbols in line with the likes of Lincoln and Grimsby in stature.
One of Neville’s original conjectures, and a view I also share, was that these symbols denoted an area of importance rather than depicting the size of a church as one might initially imagine.
Note the map below, few places are actually marked and named so it’s fair to assume that those marked are the most significant and again Helby is there.
If it was so significant then why no mention elsewhere ?
So, where is it ?
Neville’s suggestion was Great Limber or Lymburgh or indeed Limberge / Linberge and I agree but . . .
I’ll throw a second possibility into the ring, could it be perhaps an area rather than a specific place, perhaps it’s the Limber - Brocklesby area ?
The Map I Looked at this Morning - 1742 by Badeslade
On the map below you’ll notice that it is the only place marked in a font as bold as Grimsby, again that can only be significant, also it’s only those two places that are marked by a building. Go back to the first map and you’ll see only 3 places marked with a building - very telling.
Also Sent in by Neville
As mentioned previously the name Helby was brought to my attention initially by our Map Meister Neville and I’ll not paraphrase him any longer, I’m sure he’ll speak for himself and offer his opinions, more eloquently than myself as well. Here’s what I think, I make the distinction so if any ideas turn out to be nonsense I don’t want people attributing them to Neville.
I’m wondering about it being an area because when you compare the spots marked with other maps it doesn’t seem to quite land on a specific target we’d recognise today.
This could, of course, be due to the fact these maps were, presumably, drawn to be representative rather than specifically accurate in an OS sense.
But, if it was a specific town or village then I would expect it to turn up in plenty of documentation.
I would suggest Great Limber as the epicentre though. I’ve written before that Great Limber strikes me as a place far more important than we realise today. Only last week I stood at the Mausoleum marvelling at the commanding view and thought - this must have been a natural place of significance, or possibly of worship or sacred in someway, going way back - pre-Christian is not a ridiculous hypothesis.
It’s a spot with few equals in the county - I cannot believe it was just a hill !
I’ll round this up now before it gets unwieldy and move further information, ideas and discussion over to comments.
In closing I think it’s clear that there’s something of significance and interest here - a historical curiosity I venture to suggest - a case to investigate
The Game is Afoot !
Rod
Rod said,
August 26, 2010 @ 6:57 pm
Here’s something contrary to my ‘area’ suggestion
Here is section of a page from 1749 book called A new description of Berkshire, Buckinghamshire, Cambridgshire . . .
It lists Helby as a Market Town !
Mick Deakin said,
August 26, 2010 @ 7:46 pm
could be onto something there Rod as the 1742 map is listing the market days of various places - except it seems that Helby,Binbrook,Hepworth,Saltfleet and Stainton appear not to have a market day !
chris keyworth said,
August 26, 2010 @ 8:21 pm
Ive Come across this before Rod its KEELBY if you look closely at the top map the church falls at the end of New beck drain as is now, in the last map if you look at the places it is all skewiff, the monument in the picture looks to be the mauseleum. limber was known as limber parva and limber magna the village of great limber being parva and the small farm between limber parva and kirmington is limber magna and has its own monuments in the farm yared the remains of a church yard cross its an interesting land feature too.
regards
chris
chris keyworth said,
August 26, 2010 @ 8:27 pm
did you know keelby is regarded as an EMV (existing medieval village) meaning that the streets, plots and tennements are still in use, the village green is currently under planning for them to build new houses on this will desimate a large area ov the old vilages archeaology..
regards
chris
Mick Deakin said,
August 26, 2010 @ 9:29 pm
This really is confusing Chris as ‘Keleby” is shown below Helby in the bottom map. I,m sure there is an error somewhere as you say, because I,m coming up with nothing in my searches. I,ve even tried Heelby and Healby, !!
Craig Knighton said,
August 26, 2010 @ 10:41 pm
If you assume that it is Keleby, rather than Helby and then search for Kelby, you get quite a few hits for Walter de Kelby, of Lincolnshire. Possibly the site of the family seat?
It’s especially interesting that map 2 has no listing for Keleby, which can be found in documentation from the 1300s?
Search using Kelby at - sdrc.lib.uiowa.edu/patentrolls/
There is a Kelby near Sleaford now, but I can’t find out how long it has been there.
History Hunter said,
August 27, 2010 @ 1:38 am
Knowing that the maps are not positionally correct, having cross referenced all three to places that are known, i have come to the conclusion that it would be most likely to be positioned betwixt Brocklesby, Great Limber and Little Limber. TA131107
Personally i think that the remains of the cross has something to do with it, rather than it belonging to Little Limber.
Incidentally, looking on the Domesday Book Online, Keelby, Brocklesby, Great Limber and Little Limber are all mentioned, albeit with their olde english names, as is Kelby, but why would both Kelby and Keelby be mentioned separately???????
Rod said,
August 27, 2010 @ 8:33 am
Chris,
I didn’t know Keelby was an EMV, nor the plans to ruin it !
If the symbol is the mausoleum isn’t there a dating issue - built 1792 ?
I did just find that there were burials and a barrow / tumulus where the mausoleum now site - so it looks as though it was a ’special place’ for a very long time as I suggested in the op
Rod said,
August 27, 2010 @ 8:54 am
Craig, very interesting and many thanks for the cracking map.
Here’s the map very kindly found and sent in by Craig
Morden 1695
1695 is the earliest reference I’ve seen, and it’s shown on the map as Helbye
Note also there’s a symbol there once again but of particular interest is Lymburgh and Lymbrgh Magna are also listed, as is Nun Cotham Priory.
Position wise it looks now to fit very nicely with Chris and Craig’s idea that it’s Keelby possibly
Great stuff - I think we’re getting somewhere
Best
Rod
Rod said,
August 27, 2010 @ 9:09 am
HH,
why would both Kelby and Keelby be mentioned separately
that’s a very good point.
I’m looking at my Domesday Book now and it has:
Keelby Chelebi/Chilebi:
King’s , land; Archbishop of York and William from him; Bishop of Bayeuxand Wadard from him; Ranulf from Bishop of Lincoln; Ivo Tailbois and Neal from him; Drogo de Beuvriere and Robert from him; Norman d’Ardand Geoffrey from him; Waidin the Engineer and William from him. 1 1/2 mills, salt-pan,
Kelby Chelebi/Chillebi:
Bishop of Durham and Almod from him; Bishop of Lincoln and Colegrim from him; Gnyde Craon and Aschil the priest from him.
stan said,
August 27, 2010 @ 9:25 am
These old maps that are being shown are very interesting. Shows how the spelling of various places has changed over the years.
Stan
Rod said,
August 27, 2010 @ 9:31 am
Stan,
they are very useful in terms of alternative spellings, it really helps when looking for information, it’s amazing what turns up when you start searching using a variant spelling.
Best
Rod
History Hunter said,
August 27, 2010 @ 12:57 pm
The Domesday listings for the two entries seems to convey that they are completely separate of each other. The only ‘name’ that is mentioned in both is the Bishop of Lincoln, and each mention has a different person associated with him.
Personally i dont think that Helby/Kelby is Keelby. I think it was a little north west of present day Keelby.
Incidentally, i know my eyes are not perfect but looking at the map provided by Craig look in the very top left of the map. What does that say? To me it also looks like Helby. What say you?
Amiguru said,
August 27, 2010 @ 12:58 pm
Rod et al,
I’m expecting visitors tomorrow so preparing for that and the local air show is on atm so I’m trying to get some good pics of the ‘Memorial Flight’. Not ignoring you all, will contribute when other pressures allow
Regards,
Neville
Rod said,
August 27, 2010 @ 1:04 pm
HH,
I’d think that’s possibly the end of Brocklesby.
Best
Rod
Craig Knighton said,
August 27, 2010 @ 1:28 pm
If I remember correctly wasn’t the suffix ‘by’ a viking term when referring to place names?
If so then why would anyone name their village/farm/parish Hel, when Hel refers to the underworld?
Rod said,
August 27, 2010 @ 3:12 pm
Craig,
you do indeed remember correctly, I also like your reasoning re etymology.
The name must have originsa and reasons behind it - all names do - another interesting line you’ve opened up
Best
Rod
Amiguru said,
August 27, 2010 @ 7:52 pm
Firstly, some salient points for consideration.
1. The further back we go, the less accurate maps are going to be in a topographical and geographical sense due to less efficient, if any, surveying techniques.
2. It is probable that surveying did not take place for every map published, at least before the 19th. century. The situation changed dramatically then due to the expected threat of invasion by Napoleon, so in fact he did us a service in triggering the Ordnance Survey which was principally undertaken by Army surveyors. Many maps it seems, before this era were in fact just copies of those already published, but with stylistic and whimsical modifications. Due to this blatant plagiarism, any errors of naming or positioning were simply repeated.
3. Over time, placenames sometimes do change for a variety of reasons, and I don’t just mean vagaries of spelling. (I shall withhold examples of this as I hope to do a parallel project in the near future).
4. The earlier the map, the larger the fontsize for placenames tends to be, and where places are crowding together something has to give and we get the sort of thing that has happened in the third map down.
Assuming ‘Helby’ to be Gt. Limber it was seemingly of great importance and so demanded a larger font and more elaborate symbol, thus as there was consequently no space for Keelby together with its label in its proper place, it has been dislocated to a nearby position.
5. Many of the cartographers of the 16/17th centuries were Dutch and of course there were language as well as political issues which would have foreborn upon the maps they published.
“the church falls at the end of New beck drain” - the ‘church’ on this scale is actually a couple of miles from the end of the ‘drain’. ……
“the monument in the picture looks to be the mauseleum. “ This is not a representative image of any specific building but a symbol of a relatively important place and is identical to the Grimsby one.
“the village of great limber being parva and the small farm between limber parva and kirmington is limber magna” You’ve got these the wrong way round Chris, ‘parva’ means little and ‘magna’ means great.
On a positive note, I am not dismissing your theory of it being Keelby, I’m still 80/20 in favour of Limber though.
Rod “I did just find that there were burials and a barrow / tumulus where the mausoleum now site - so it looks as though it was a ’special place’ for a very long time as I suggested in the op “ That’s putting it mildly! Gt. Limber was seemingly a very important place from prehistory onwards; and significantly it was also ‘on the beaten track’ of the route to Barton from Grimsby.
Craig “If so then why would anyone name their village/farm/parish Hel, when Hel refers to the underworld? According to the Oxford Dictionary of English Placenames: ‘Hele’, ‘Hela and ‘Heale’ mean corner. Take a look at the top map and look at where the road bends - Helby! Go to Google maps and look at the modern road at Great Limber, it is still on a bend! Nothing at all to do with Hell.
I saved Craig till last as that is, I would suggest, a major point upon which the case for Limber hinges. I would also ask what has there ever been at Keelby that is of great importance? Its just a medium sized village. Right, got that off my chest, can now eat……
Regards,
Neville
Amiguru said,
August 27, 2010 @ 8:02 pm
Sorry, “the church falls at the end of New beck drain” should have had ‘Chris‘, before it but the emboldening didn’t quite copy correctly.
Regards,
Neville
Rod said,
August 28, 2010 @ 8:33 am
Neville,
great comment - many thanks. Everything you say makes sense, there’s a surprise
What really intrugues me is the lack of mention of Helby anywhere, the obvious reason for this would be the ‘Error Principal’ - just as you mentioned somebody makes a mistake on a map and then it gets copied - I’d be happy with that - but then we have the birth record - nobody was looking at a 100 year old map when they filled that out !
That said: surely more than 1 person was born there
If I had to put money on it I’d go for Limber as well, it’s a key spot and the more you look into it the more important it gets
Best
Rod
Femme Fatale said,
August 28, 2010 @ 9:55 am
To All,
This is an extremely interesting post, i keep coming back to read it for the updates!
Exciting stuff
Thank you
FF
xx
stan said,
August 28, 2010 @ 10:31 am
Same here FF. Some interesting nuggets of information keep cropping up.
Stan
Amiguru said,
August 28, 2010 @ 11:40 am
FF & Stan,
Thanks from me for your encouragement and I’m sure that goes for the rest of ‘the gang’. I find that such support makes it worthwhile and goads me for one, on to dig deeper. I have yet another hunch that I’m working on atm….;)
regards,
Neville
Femme Fatale said,
August 28, 2010 @ 12:21 pm
Neville,
I, for one, am looking forward to the revealing of the ‘Hunch’
FF
xx
History Hunter said,
August 28, 2010 @ 3:38 pm
Mr Ion CD, why have you never mentioned having a hunch before? The picture in my head of your weekend escapades dressing as the fairer sex has just got even better now its COMPLETE WITH HUNCH!!!
Anymore of these announcements and im going to have to seek psychiatric help! (some say i am already in need of it, but i dont listen to those voices in my head anymore!)
Amiguru said,
August 28, 2010 @ 4:46 pm
Mr. HaHa,
Careful, you might do yourself an injury at this rate! Have you thought of applying to His Grace for a position of Court Jester?
Seriously, I came across a member of your family the other day, (I think!).
John William Emptage married Sussanah Harrison at St. James, Grimsby, 19 August 1845.
I know you said your parents have ‘done the tree’ but thought it was interesting
Regards,
Neville
History Hunter said,
August 28, 2010 @ 5:33 pm
Only the best venue for Weddings for our family!
Its surprising where and when we pop up. Like you said previously, there must be rabbit genes in the family. Spread like wildfire, especially when theres nothing decent on TV!!!
Maybe His Grace should make a list of his underlings with official titles, for those only here to serve.
I obviously would expect to be included, but would expect nothing better than Master of the Stool (and yes it is as bad as it sounds), but maybe with a small amount of pushing i could indeed be the Court Jester, if nobody else was dealt that card!
History Hunter said,
August 28, 2010 @ 5:35 pm
Having been searching for more info i have at least found a more substantial list of locals listed as resident in KELBY in 1086. They are as follows
Aghmund; Almod, man of William de Saint-Calais, Bishop of Durham; Andor; Arnketil; Asgot; Aslak; Beorhtric; Bondi; Brothers of Godric; Earl Morcar; Fenkell; Godric; Godwine; Grimkel; Gunnhvati; Habeinn; Harold; Joscelin, man of William de Saint-Calais, Bishop of Durham; Kolgrimr; Kolsveinn, man of William de Saint-Calais, Bishop of Durham; Lambert, man of William de Saint-Calais, Bishop of Durham; Men of William de Saint-Calais, Bishop of Durham; Nigel, man of William de Saint-Calais, Bishop of Durham; Ralph; Remigius, Bishop of Lincoln; Sumarlithr; Swein; Thorfridh; Turstin, man of William de Saint-Calais, Bishop of Durham; Walbert, man of William de Saint-Calais, Bishop of Durham; Wife of Wulfgeat; Wulfgeat; Mother of wife of Wulfgeat; Wulfric Wild
Craig knighton said,
August 28, 2010 @ 6:12 pm
Thanks for the info, re Hel.
As far as the birth record for Helby, I submit that it is a mis-spelling as there are quite a few Burkitt’s listed in birth records for Kelby near Sleaford, around the same time?
History Hunter said,
August 29, 2010 @ 4:53 pm
Well well well, what have we here?
Its only a map from 1610by John Speede, and i think it answers our question, but also may open up a little can of worms too!!
(Photo on its way to Rod)
As you can see on the map, the large church icon can be seen at Grimsbye, Barton, Glamford Brigges (Brigg), Thong Caster (Caistor) and Great Lymberghe. Keleby can clearly be seen away from the icon as are Little Lymbergh (notice no ‘e’ on the end) and Brokelsbye.
John Speed 1610
One little question though……….BROUGH………what is that? I know its the name of the District, but i have never heard that before.
You will notice on the map that both Newsham Abbye and Cotham Abbye are mentioned but no others are anywhere on the entire map. There is also mention of Thornton Colledg. This was on the site of Thornton Abbey which closed in 1539 but was then refounded as a secular college.
Incidentally I didnt realise that Cotham Abbey was situated in a Hamlet. That means there must have been a small village in and around the Abbey. Until now I thought it was a standalone building out in the sticks
Rod said,
August 29, 2010 @ 5:26 pm
Tony,
I’ve seen Brough crops up in the same vein as the Wapentakes of Bradley and Haverstoe etc as well as being a place I believe
I’d need to look into that though
A good vote in favout of Great Limber Tony - well played
Best
Rod
History Hunter said,
August 29, 2010 @ 5:33 pm
Incidentally, what do you think that may be surrounding Kettleby near Brigg?
Amiguru said,
August 29, 2010 @ 5:48 pm
HaHa,
You didn’t ‘tak’ your ‘wapon’ did you? Head north and you will come to ‘YAR:’ head south and you will come to ‘BROUGH’
YAR+BROUGH makes ????
“Incidentally, what do you think that may be surrounding Kettleby near Brigg? “ A dotted circle usually indicates an enclosed park, as in deer park.
Regards,
Ion CD
Rod said,
August 29, 2010 @ 6:42 pm
Neville,
YAR+BROUGH
Never saw that - nice catch
Best
Rod
chris keyworth said,
August 29, 2010 @ 6:46 pm
Kettleby is a substantial moated site of which alot is still visable it extends east towords the quaries there is also a cemetery (modern) near hear which has been put under the plough 17th century and is marked on some old maps
regards
chris
History Hunter said,
August 29, 2010 @ 7:38 pm
You see Mr Ion, I wasnt the only one to miss the connection. I had actually noticed the Yar at the top, but with the pure distance between the words i did not associate the two together. Does that mean that there are two neighbouring districts that are conjoined in name alone, or is it likely just to be a singular district but with some airhead not being able to write the two words together?
I have since had a little dabble at Kettleby, and it seems that there is a DMV, Kettleby-Thorpe, a small hamlet, which is today situated on the site of, surprisingly, Kettleby-Thorpe Farm (The clue is in the name). On the farm site is a desecrated burial-ground, where fragments of Roman pavement have been found.
Interesting eh?
Amiguru said,
August 29, 2010 @ 10:19 pm
Mr. HaHa,
“I had actually noticed the Yar at the top, but with the pure distance between the words i did not associate the two together.” therefore my friend, nor did you associate the three together; YAR: - BROUGH - WAPON
They stand, of course, for the administrative area Yarborough Wapontak. This is indicated on Speed’s map by the dotted line which runs roughly: Stallingborough, Riby, Nettleton, then follows the Ancholme up to the Humber to North Ferriby, then round the coast back to Stallingborough. The logic of breaking it up into three parts was to indicate that the whole area was so named. Later cartographic styles would run the whole title across the area in a distinctive font. Speed does the same thing consistently throughout the county and indeed throughout his whole series. Sometimes it is ‘Wapontak’, sometimes ‘Wapon’ depending on space available. Likewise when refering to Hundred’s the whole word may be abbreviated to ‘Hun’. A Hundred as a point of interest, was an alternative term for the same thing.
‘Wapontak’ is alledgedly from the term ‘weapon touch’ as the administrative meetings held at the place appointed could only be participated in by those with the right to bear arms. A ‘Hundred’ was supposedly, an area big enough to provide for the needs of either one hundred men-of-arms or a hundred families. All lost in the mists of time.
Sorry to drift from the point of investigating Helby, and I know you probably knew most of this HH, but it may help others less conversant with these matters to understand our rantings
Regards,
Neville
Mick Deakin said,
August 30, 2010 @ 12:36 am
To enlarge upon Wapentakes & Hundreds…
The law of the Wapentake was the ‘Danelage’ (Danelaw) whilst the Hundred was Mercian/West Saxon and the two differed profoundly.
Wapentake assemblies were attended by free men exercising a fair amount of autonomy in regulating the affairs of their respective districts.The Hundred courts served the purpose of and were subject to the authority of the lords that owned them.
The two differed considerably in their administrative structures also
Mick
Peter Mullins said,
August 31, 2010 @ 7:47 am
But what is the answer? You can’t all stop here. It is like reading a detective story and not having the final pages.
Helby is a name on a map but one without any historical records or references at least in of the most obviously accessible places. Some map makers list it next to Keelby (and thus don’t think it is Keelby) and some next to Great Limber (and thus don’t think it is Great Limber), and nobody has jumped up to say that there is a reference to either of these places ever being known by an alternative name.
Perhaps there was a misreading of an early spelling of ‘Kelby’ or ‘Chelebi’ (its Domesday Book form) on a map we no longer have, and all later map makers who include it have simply reproduced this? If so, it is difficult to believe nobody local picked this up and corrected it.
Rod said,
August 31, 2010 @ 8:50 am
Peter,
what’s your favoured option ?
The mistake/misspelling theory is an attractive, and possibly correct one, but there is mention of the place spanning nearly 100 years or so and in different sources - that said simply not as many mentions as you’d imagine it to have.
Look at the list of market towns above, if it were a market town then surely the name should appear in charters and the like all over the place ?
It’s a mystery and a compelling one - my money, if forced to bet, would still be on Limber
Cheers
Rod
chris keyworth said,
August 31, 2010 @ 9:32 am
how about Stepney or Keelby Grange these have to be concidered for Helby
regards
chris
Amiguru said,
August 31, 2010 @ 11:55 am
Peter, Rod, Chris & all other Knights and Knightesses of the Order of the Rod,
Never fear, we just don’t give up on this site. I for one am still rummaging through the jungle that is my resources, on this very trail and have several other ghost names and anomolies in hand in N.E. Lincs. I am developing something I would like to post in the near future but there is no point in blurting out snippets of it at random; a bit like reading the penultimate chapter of a whodunnit.
You, Peter, did a fine job through your contacts in resolving the answer to ‘Sydnaceaster’, at least to the satisfaction of most of us I’m sure. This one I feel will between us all, be cracked.
Regards,
Neville
Rod said,
August 31, 2010 @ 5:54 pm
Sydnaceaster,
good point Neville, that was another interesting thing we did and as you say Peter played a blinder !
here it is
Best
Rod
Linda & Peter said,
August 31, 2010 @ 6:01 pm
One observation on the list of market towns presented in the earlier post from Rod. If you take a look at page 103 in the source document (use Google Books) where the market town list is elaborated upon you’ll find
“The next Town we have named in the Number of Market-Towns in this County, is Helby, which not being generally allowed to be so, we shall place in its Room, (which was there omitted)”
Not sure quite how to interpret the sentence, does it suggest that the author knew there was a mistake or that he was on uncertain ground?
Mick Deakin said,
August 31, 2010 @ 6:10 pm
A possible ‘clue’ to the Helby /Keelby conundrum. Keadby, near Crowle, is Hedebi in Domesday Book. dont know when the change from ‘H’ to ‘K’ occurred, but is it possible we have a similar transition?
Rod said,
August 31, 2010 @ 7:33 pm
L&P,
, and goes to show, in my opinion that there is something strange here.
that’s an excellent find - many thanks indeed - very interesting too.
It’s strange phrasing, luckily we have an expert in strange phrasing
Obviously it was less than clear over a quarter of a millenia ago !
Best
Rod
Rod said,
August 31, 2010 @ 7:35 pm
Mick,
there could well be a spelling issue / transition here somewhere I would imagine.
Sometimes when I’m researching old documents and maps etc I see obscure places mentioned and they’re never spelled the same twice - add to that general corruption and evolvement and . . .
Cheers
Rod
Amiguru said,
August 31, 2010 @ 8:57 pm
Rod,
Some additional information about the third map, (pink). It was engraved by Alexander Browne in 1700, five years before his death. This makes it the earliest reference we have to Helby, so far. There are portraits of him in The National Art Gallery and they state that: ”
Alexander Browne was a significant figure in the late seventeenth century art scene in London. He was variously a ‘practitioner of the art of limning’, a drawing master (to Elizabeth Pepys from 1665, among others), an author of a drawing manual and treatise on art, an art auctioneer and dealer, a print publisher (especially of ‘mezo tinto’) and printseller.”
At least he wasn’t a foreigner so despite the vagaries of spelling in the Jacobean period, he would not have had the linguistic bias that say, a Dutchman might have had.
I am currently re-reading great chunks of Streatfeild’s ‘Lincolnshire and the Danes’ as they had a major influence on the placenames in the areas between the coast and the Wolds. You wouldn’t believe the complexities. It is going to be an almighty task to resolve; I know of five linguistically sound theories for the etymology of the root word
The ‘by’ or ‘bi’ element is established, no problem there; but ‘Hel’ ??? Which one is right?
Keep at it chaps, I’m still finishing off the flints thing!
Regards,
Neville
Mick Deakin said,
August 31, 2010 @ 10:09 pm
Chew over this possibility guys:-
Hel was the goddess of the underworld in the Norse religion, ruling over the place that all those that did not die in battle went when they died !!!
Amiguru said,
August 31, 2010 @ 10:55 pm
Linda & Peter,
“Not sure quite how to interpret the sentence,”
I suggest that: As Thomas Read indicated in the book’s title, this is a ‘new description’, and that an earlier gazetteer/guide was the source of his information. With this in mind he is quoting verbatim up to the word ‘Room’, he then effectively comments that although there had been intent to enter some other place in its stead, this had not been fulfilled.
As to Helby not being allowed a market; that is entirely plausible as markets were licensed and could only be held on agreed days. I can’t recall where, but the other day I read of Grimsby, (I think), holding a market on a day other than the regular market day and the borough being fined accordingly.
Regards,
Neville
History Hunter said,
September 1, 2010 @ 12:15 am
Somewhere up this thread Chris mentions something about Keelby being an EMV, and that there are plans afoot to build on the village green. Well having been looking into the Keelby history if found this little snippet.
When the Village Green was bequeathed to the village there was a clause in the deeds that specified that the green would be left to the village for recreational purposes “in perpetuity”. Thus legally it cannot be used for any other purpose, such as house building or business use.
For those not up with the complexities of big words, ‘in perpituity’ means FOREVER!
Rod said,
September 1, 2010 @ 8:30 am
Neville,
best of luck with the linguistics - sounds like a nightmare
1700, five years before his death. This makes it the earliest reference we have to Helby, so far.
I’m not being pedantic but just in case it may have any bearing what about Morden - 1695
Cheers
Rod
Amiguru said,
September 1, 2010 @ 10:27 am
Rod,
Hands up! missed it as it is not ‘with the group’. OK so 1695 - the critical question is I suppose - Why was the name apparently not used prior to 1695 and post 1770? I know there may be earlier or later occurences that we haven’t seen yet. I’ve a feeling this may go on for some time….
Camden too was English so the same inference applies. According to Wiki: “first published in a new edition of Camden’s “Britannia” in 1695, and subsequently reissued in 1722, 1753 and 1772″ It would be interesting to see if the later editions of his map retained the ‘Helby’ name.
Regards,
Neville
Mick Deakin said,
September 1, 2010 @ 9:58 pm
****://catalogue.nla.gov.au
On the Emanuel Bowen map of 1767 - shown as ‘Kelbye’ (can really zoom into detail on this map)
…Still trying
Craig Knighton said,
September 1, 2010 @ 11:46 pm
Mick the map is earlier, as Bowen died in 1767
I grabbed the part that interests this thread, and emailed it to Rod, for others who can’t wait (or want to see more) here’s a better link.
nla.gov.au/apps/cdview?pi=nla.map-ra40-s22-sd&rgn=0.2968750000,0.2435693871,0.5372596154,0.4341060654&width=1200&cmd=pan&x=1200
Craig Knighton said,
September 2, 2010 @ 12:24 am
Further browsing of the Australian Digital Map collection
You can right-click and save the image
Christopher Saxton - 1542? to 1610
nla.gov.au/apps/cdview?pi=nla.map-rm1208-sd&rgn=0.3770757392%2C0.3455844819%2C0.6200891049%2C0.6518631955&cmd=t_pan&width=1200&x=89&y=60
Christopher Saxton (at the British Library online, needs Flash to zoom about) - 1579
bl.uk/onlinegallery/onlineex/unvbrit/l/zoomify83379.html
John Speed - 1552? to 1629 (same as the one that HH posted, but big and browsable)
nla.gov.au/apps/cdview?pi=nla.map-rm1226-sd&rgn=0.4061196106%2C0.3816585366%2C0.5915623551%2C0.6158048780&cmd=t_pan&width=1200&x=100&y=72
Ordnance Survey 1819 (top left, again needs Flash to zoom about)
bl.uk/onlinegallery/onlineex/ordsurvdraw/g/zoomify82529.html
That’s enough for now I think
Rod said,
September 2, 2010 @ 8:09 am
map update:
the map Mick and Craig are talking about - very interesting indeed and many thanks to Craig for sending in this image
Rod said,
September 2, 2010 @ 8:12 am
Looking at that map makes you scroll back 54 comments all the way back to comment #3
Is this map the final link and the answer ?
What a fantastic thread this is
Best
Rod
Amiguru said,
September 2, 2010 @ 11:32 am
Nice find Craig, you’re all beginning to catch up with me
I’m currently working on combining into one image the relevant section, i.e. Grimsby to Gt. Limber, from 29 maps spanning from 1576 to 1840 and dating each one so that they are all in one place and dated. That way everything is collated and judgements can be made. I just hope Rod is prepared to post what will inevitably be a long image despite my cropping each one to the minimum.
Regards,
Neville
Rod said,
September 2, 2010 @ 11:39 am
Neville,
long is fine, I also note images come in at 650 wide now
Very helpful
Rod
Amiguru said,
September 2, 2010 @ 1:11 pm
Rod,
“I also note images come in at 650 wide now”
Yes, I am trying to make both your and my lives easier! It also helps with what is visible on the page; i.e. there is no point in going on about some detail of finesse if it isn’t visible to other bloggers is it? That is one of the reasons I send in little snippets of maps; nice to see the whole picture but ‘close in’ is often necessary to make a point.
Not only is 650 wide a good fit but I resized all of my map extracts to 650 to make it a lot easier to stitch all 29 of them together. Yet another mammoth task, but I love it as you know
Regard,
Neville
Amiguru said,
September 2, 2010 @ 4:46 pm
I think that it is time that we paused and examined all available images to determine what the truth about Helby might be. There are more factors influencing the issue than are evident on the face of it; we have to put aside all subjectivity and not just think ‘I reckon it is so-and-so’. I shall say no more at this point, other than to explain the following image.
I have cropped the pertinent area from 29 maps spanning the time-frame 1576-1840. Some of the original images are huge and local, some are whole county or even whole country; consequently they are a very mixed bag regarding clarity due to scaling up or down in order to stitch the crops together. Nevertheless, I have included each because they have some feature, nomenclature or location which impinges upon what we are trying to determine. I’m sure there are even more maps out there to add to the arsenal but my focus is now going to go in the direction of the textual evidence. So here you have it, be swayed one way or the other as you work your way down. I shall air my further thoughts in due course.
Regards,
Neville
Rod said,
September 2, 2010 @ 4:53 pm
Neville,
that’s a tour de force - incredible - it also has the record for the largest picture file on the site
It’s all very strange as well - if it is Keelby and a simple mistake repeated by others over the years it still appears in large letters on some of the maps so it seems to be a place of importance
Fabulous this !
In admiration
Rod
chris keyworth said,
September 2, 2010 @ 5:25 pm
IFFFFFFFFFF…… ive already told you its keelby third comment down…but nice everyone has gone to the effort to try and prove it and i love the old maps its a major part of my reasearch on newhouse abbey which sadly i missed out. these old maps should be widely available on here and its great to see Nevs snipets there great additions..
regards
chris…
Craig Knighton said,
September 2, 2010 @ 6:13 pm
The map I sent Rod, last referenced above, and thanked by Amiguru, was actually found by Mick, I just right-clicked and ’stole’ it!.
Is 1695 the problem map, as when we look at the portion labeled 1695 including in Ye Olde North Lincolnshire Tapestry by Amiguru, the H of ‘Helbye’ and of Heling are differently written. Did someone use a poor copy of the 1695 map as their base, where the K of Kelbye was sufficiently scuffed/rubbed as to make it look more like an H?
History Hunter said,
September 2, 2010 @ 6:49 pm
Can I suggest something? The other day i found out that the Nunnery at Nun Cotham was actually part of a hamlet where i had previously thought it had been built out in the middle of nowhere for the sake of sanctity. There has been no mention of the name of the little village, but maybe as Chris mentioned, it may be Keelby Grange, but then again it could be Helby/Kelby
chris keyworth said,
September 2, 2010 @ 6:54 pm
its not the grange mate its Stepney….
regards
chris
Gordon Luck said,
September 2, 2010 @ 7:52 pm
I’m sure there is something mentioned about the hamlet at Nun Cotham in
Change and Continuity: Rural Settlement in North-West Lincolnshire, Paul Everson
which I once had on special order from the library about 15 years ago, if anyone has sight of a copy?
chris keyworth said,
September 2, 2010 @ 8:06 pm
good luck Gordon ive been trying to get a copy for the same length of time… cracking book.
regards
chris
Peter Mullins said,
September 3, 2010 @ 9:17 am
It is indeed Keelby, misread or miswritten. That is my conclusion scrolling down the truly magnificent stitched together set of maps.
Helby doesn’t appear in the earliest maps and it doesn’t appear elsewhere in the historical record = it didn’t exist.
Most maps which name it place it at or very near Keelby and don’t include a separate entry for Keelby = it is Keelby.
There is just one a map (from 1700) which gives both Helby and Keelby = I now assume on the evidence above that this simply shows how badly researched that particular map was.
None of this means that Great Limber (and its church) wasn’t a more significant place; as at Caistor, the huge pillar bases in the church would seem to indicate that an earlier church building there was on a bigger scale (and the last Vicar liked to think that this gave it an outside chance of Great Limber being the real Sydnaceaster, which gives a nice circularity to this post).
Rod said,
September 3, 2010 @ 1:41 pm
Peter,
this one’s been a great journey - really enjoyed watching it unfold as more and more gets added.
I’ve got to get Caistor church fully written up as I’ve done the visit and pictures etc a year ago !
The point about the pillar bases is very interesting indeed
Best
Rod
History Hunter said,
September 3, 2010 @ 1:42 pm
Gordon, Chris, there is a copy of Change and Continuity: Rural Settlement in North-West Lincolnshire available, for perusal, in the Reference Library at Hull Central Library if you need to have a read.
Amiguru said,
September 3, 2010 @ 3:15 pm
HH,
That means going abroad doesn’t it? Has Rod checked their visas? Incidentally it is still available to buy from WH Smith’s and Neal’s. Thick end of £50 though!
Regards,
Neville
Amiguru said,
September 3, 2010 @ 3:19 pm
Rod,
Not an opinion just some data come to light about Limber Magna regarding the ‘market’ issue:
“GREAT LIMBER 5135 4086. 1334 Subsidy £82.50. Market town c.1600 (Everitt, p. 474).
M (Charter) Tues; gr 26 Oct 1257, by K Hen III to Robert de Beumes, yeoman to Edward the king’s son. To be held at the manor (CChR, 1226–57, p. 476). In 1281, Hugo de Beaumes was holding the market (QW, p. 415). On 10 Nov 1391, K Ric II confirmed K Hen III’s charter to Philip le Despenser, kn, tenant of the manor (CPR, 1388–92, p. 497). Market place recorded in 1598 (P.L. Everson, C.C. Taylor and C.J. Dunn, Change and Continuity, Rural Settlement in North-West Lincolnshire, Royal Commission on the Historical Monuments of England (London, 1991), p. 103).
F (Charter) vfm, Peter and Paul (29 Jun); gr 26 Oct 1257, by K Hen III to Robert de Beumes, yeoman to Edward the king’s son. To be held at the manor (CChR, 1226–57, p. 476). In 1281, Hugo de Beaumes was holding the fair (QW, p. 415). On 10 Nov 1391, K Ric II confirmed K Hen III’s charter to Philip le Despenser, kn, tenant of the manor (CPR, 1388–92, p. 497).”
Copied from the Gazetteer of Markets and Fairs site.
Regards,
Neville
History Hunter said,
September 3, 2010 @ 5:19 pm
Nev, I am assured that any visitor who so wishes to travel across the vast Humber Ocean will be fine as long as:
a) they hold their breath constantly (dont breathe their air)
b) they dress like the locals (shell suits and sandals) (blend in)
c) have a stolen mobile phone (blend in)
d) dont read anything in the library, just look at photos (blend in)
e) say ‘am off darn Hezzle Rerd’ instead of ‘ I am going down Hessle Road’ (speak like what they do)
As long as these hints are followed to the letter, everything should be OK
Femme Fatale said,
September 4, 2010 @ 6:02 pm
Amiguru and all,
Magnificent post,
I have been enthralled throughout this investigation, I would never have thought it was something as simple as a spelling mistake!
FF
xx
Rod said,
September 4, 2010 @ 8:00 pm
FF,
pleased you enjoyed it - as I hope others have - certainly a lot of people have read it
Thanks for taking the time to acknowldege it - much appreciated
All the best
Rod
Amiguru said,
September 6, 2010 @ 3:59 pm
HH and Chris,
“Nun Cotham was actually part of a hamlet where i had previously thought it had been built out in the middle of nowhere for the sake of sanctity…….”
“its not the grange mate its Stepney….”
I’ve checked the period maps and Stepney, is part of Keelby and the Keelby parish boundary is immediately behind, what used to be at least, Somerscales sawmills. Nuncoton is in fact part of Brocklesby parish.
Regards,
Neville
Amiguru said,
September 6, 2010 @ 4:41 pm
I thought I would let others give their point of view on this matter before expressing my own. I have read them all and agree with some points and not others. So, this is what I think:
Helby doesn’t, and never did exist. I think that it all happened by a series of unhappy accidents and the rather dubious honour of the name ‘Helby’ would seem to have been bestowed variously on Limber Magna, Keelby and an imagined place created ‘because so-and-so has it on his map so it must be there’.
Over the last two days I have acquired 17 more historical maps of Lincolnshire and two of these also have a ‘Helby’; one, most significantly, is the latest date we have for this phenomenon, it being the Jefferys & Dunn map of 1776.
The earliest map, so far, to bear the honour is Morden’s of 1695. It might be assumed therefore that the blame lies at his door and indeed I think, well it might. My logic is that he was a prolific English map-maker, (among other things), and his most famous series was the ‘County Maps’ produced under his direction for the new edition of Camden’s Britannia published that year. The maps in the previous editions by Messrs. Hole and Kip did not include a ‘Helby’, (I have this edition in my collection).
The preface to the 1695 edition states:
“The Maps are all new engraved, either according to Surveys never before published, or according to such as have been made and printed since Saxton and Speed. Where actual Surveys could be had, the were purchased at any rate; and for the rest, one of the best Copies exant was sent to some of the most knowing Gentlemen in each County; with a request to supply the defects, rectified the positions, and correct the false spellings. An that nothing might be wanting to render them as complete and accurate as might be, this whole business was committed to MR. ROBERT MORDEN, a person of known abilities in these matters, who took care to revise them, to see the slips of the Engraver mended, and the corrections, returned out of the several Counties duly inserted. Upon the whole, we need not scruple to affirm, that they are much the fairest and most correct of any that have yet appeared.”
Damning evidence indeed, but ultimately, I think the real blame lies with the Lincolnshire ‘Gentleman’, whoever he was, sending either a wrongly corrected draft or that he had such a slovenly hand that his annotation was misinterpreted.
Whatever the case, once it was published in such a prestigious work, who dare question it? For the next, almost century, up to the point when real surveying began, it was a case of ‘Chinese whispers’ as Mordens map was the most likely to be used as a reference by other cartographers as their “most reliable source”. This would no doubt be the case for mapmakers on the continent, the Dutch in particular, who were really prolific and skilled in mapmaking as they were also a maritime nation. French and Scandinavian mapmakers too followed suit, and so ‘Helby’ became a legend.
Continentals, less familiar with England and it’s placenames, may also have looked at extant maps and noticed how many places there were in NE Lincs. ending with ‘by’ added to which is the fact that nearby was a place called, (and spelled then), ‘Heling’; so why not ‘Helby’ as a neighbour? I can imagine that if verbal enquiries made of a fellow Hollander who had travelled to England as to its name he may even had said ‘Kelby’ but with the characteristic Dutch gutteral accent. Try saying ‘Kelby’ with a ‘ch’ as in ‘loch’.
We English, on the other hand generally can’t, for instance, pronounce ‘Vincent van Goch’ correctly, and the American effort is just laughable.
If the shoe, or rather clog, were on the other foot……..
I have, as usual made a meal of a seemingly tiny issue but I hope my arguments are plausible.
Exhaustively yours,
Neville
Rod said,
September 6, 2010 @ 5:45 pm
Neville,
excellent - really does round this one off nicely - what a great journey it’s been.
Scrolling down this thread is just a joy - I love it - it pretty much sums up what I’d like the site to be
Many thanks to everybody who contributes
Regards
Rod
Anon said,
September 10, 2010 @ 4:46 am
I have a copy of “Change and Continuity: Rural Settlement in North-West Lincolnshire” in front of me, and there is very little about Nun Cotham in it, except for the usual reference to the post-medieval, secular buildings of the Tyrwhitt family on the site. It suggests that there is evidence that the demesne lands of Nun Cotham were effectively the townships of earlier villages”, but there is no mention of Helby.
My guess is it’s an early example of the typo (a quillo?)
Rod said,
September 10, 2010 @ 7:24 am
Anon,
thanks for the comment and welcome to the site.
Very helpful and much appreciated - I love quillo you’ve just coined a new term
All the best
Rod
Amiguru said,
September 11, 2010 @ 11:04 pm
Excuse me please….but has anyone heard of Hilstal and Tunstall near Grimsby?
History Hunter said,
September 12, 2010 @ 12:06 am
Ive heard of the Priory of Tunstall, which was in Lincolnshire, so I’m guessing thatll be the Tunstall your talking about.
Saying that, i have just had a look around the interwidewebnet and the only Tunstall Priory that is listed as being somewhere near Redbourne (the exact location is unknown)
Now Hilstal, thats a different kettle of trout. I know absolutely sod all about it. Never heard of it.
Are you sure you don’t lay there in a darkened room at a weekend and think up things to confuse us all?
As Anon said just a few posts ago, are you sure its not a ‘quillo’?
Amiguru said,
September 12, 2010 @ 11:00 am
HH,
Beware the dreaded North Wind!
As you know, my little questions have profound purposes. The Master is obviously steering clear of this one for now; methinks a wee map might tempt him.
“….listed as somewhere near Redbourne.” “That’s a red herring” as the fishwife of Scunthorpe said. This ‘Hilstal and Tunstall’ are within a 5 mile radius of Grimsby!
Regards,
Ion
Rod said,
September 12, 2010 @ 11:14 am
Neville,
but has anyone heard of Hilstal and Tunstall near Grimsby?
Missed this completely - must have been a heavy comment day - my apologies
I suspect a new thread may be called for here . . . as to maps . . . mmmmm as Homer Simpson would say
Cheers
Rod